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Are Muslims really trying to take over, or are some people just suffering from Islamaphobia? — Page 2

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Warbler said:

Mrebo said:but it doesn't matter if most members of a group don't want to take over the world or install Islamic law everywhere.

this is what I was and still do take issue with.   It does matter that most don't want to take over the world.   You have to factor that in to how you react to the problem(s) caused by those that do want to take over the world.

CP3S describes the part of the problem well.

I mean, look at Egypt where through the power of democracy, fundamentalists took over. It's not enough to shrug/sigh and say 'well some people are trying to do bad stuff and others aren't.'

That certainly wasn't an adequate response when the Germans were trying to take over the world, and many Germans were complicit or passive. What we don't want to do is what we did to the Japanese, prosecuted by virtue of being Japanese. Or American liberals prosecuted for their communism.

But we don't ignore an identifiable problem. A dangerous authoritarian Islam exists around the world. Like I said, many American conservatives get too heated in their response to it, but it is a real problem.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Egypt wasn't particularly democratic or pleasant before the 'Arab Slinky'.

Indeed the torture and repression of the West backed 'democratic' regimes largely created Islamism as it is currently recognised.

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TV's Frink said:

There's two things in this world I can't stand - people who are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch.

OMG me too! Did I relate the time I was Amsterdam? The hotel room was robbed. While I was sleeping in it. The police officer at the station, the only one there, came out of the back room smoking pot. And he was the only person I encountered in that city who did not speak English. But most of all I hate that I supposedly have an unknown amount of Dutch ancestry. Windmills, wooden shoes, prostitution, pot...the police can have my Dutch DNA.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Bingowings said:

Egypt wasn't particularly democratic or pleasant before the 'Arab Slinky'.

True. But at least Mubarak kept the Islamists at bay.

Indeed the torture and repression of the West backed 'democratic' regimes largely created Islamism as it is currently recognised.

My spell check notes that you've misspelled "recognized."

On what basis do you declare that the current Islam is the result of the activities of the West?

The blue elephant in the room.

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TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

And this is where the conflict stems from. Western Europe has increasingly become a more secular society over the years. The majority don't need religion to tell them how to live their lives. We've moved on. They don't like the way we live? Then stay in their own fucking country. That's all it boils down to.

The "way we live" is itself a troubling statement that can pretty much be used to justify anything, and oppress anyone.

So would you prefer to live under the rules of a western democracy, or under a Sharia controlled dictatorship? And make no mistake, Sharia Law is a dictatorship. Make your choice. The UK or Saudi Arabia?

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Mrebo said: My spell check notes that you've misspelled "recognized."

On what basis do you declare that the current Islam is the result of the activities of the West?

I type in English not American.

The prudish 'simpler world' fan Sayyid Qutb was Davros to Islamism and it was the torture of him and and his fellow Muslim Brotherhood members by the Nasser regime that inspired the rise of people like Bin Laden.

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Take any group of men and I'm sure you can find some who abuse women.

There are a lot of Muslims so the probability of finding a Muslim abuser of women is statistically higher than finding a Sikh abuser of women.

The proportional share is I dare say probably the same.

You seem to be obsessed with making out that Muslims are different to other humans in some way.

People in general are horrid.

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So your saying take an ordinary bunch of western men and show them this video and there would be at least one who would agree with it?

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Hey, it's me. said:

So your saying take an ordinary bunch of western men and show them this video and there would be at least one who would agree with it?

Probably many more than one and a number of women too.

For every one or two who would admit it there would many thinking along those lines in silence, afraid to be seen to be as monstrous as they truly are.

The human race is diverse and legion.

You are identifying birds of a feather (it makes it easier to brand groups as bad that way), many don't know where to flock.

There are some nice people too. Most people are nice with a streak of monster running through them.

You'll find a lot them live in the East. Normal people, moderate monsters.

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Hey, it's me. said:

Read it from a Muslim themselves. http://leedsisoc.com/blog/201305/why-we-muslims-just-dont-get

Small grammatical faux pas, but oddly telling about your point.

Interesting article, but I have to take umbrage with:

It's our responsibility to ensure the country is comfortable with our presence here. If they're not, it's a failing of ours and not theirs.

I just cant agree with that.

 

 

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Hey, it's me. said:

There will never be peaceful segregation between communities while one community chooses to shut themselves off from everyone else and refuse to even try to integrate with the local people. That creates division and ill feeling,  when that's the first thing you should be looking to avoid. And this is the alienation problem the majority of people have with the Muslim communities. There are areas of East London where road names are written in Arabic for crying out loud. They don't want to integrate and they never will integrate.

I know what you mean! Look at the endless strife between Chinese Americans and us REAL Americans over here. The violence and strife never stops! Their ethnic enclaves as bastions of crime (you can go there and buy illegal fireworks!) Chinatown my ass. More like "HateAmericaBurg!"

And don't get me started on all the Mexican's here in California. They live together in their little communities, (the ones we let them buy, over by the lettuce farms), speaking Spanish, planning to never integrate. Why can't they be like all the GOOD Mexicans from the last generation, who's kids are all English speakers, and fully integrated within three generations.

And I know that despite the history of all immigrant ethnic groups in the history of the world always assimilating every time ever always, I know THIS batch, this current batch, are just no good.

 

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Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

And this is where the conflict stems from. Western Europe has increasingly become a more secular society over the years. The majority don't need religion to tell them how to live their lives. We've moved on. They don't like the way we live? Then stay in their own fucking country. That's all it boils down to.

The "way we live" is itself a troubling statement that can pretty much be used to justify anything, and oppress anyone.

So would you prefer to live under the rules of a western democracy, or under a Sharia controlled dictatorship? And make no mistake, Sharia Law is a dictatorship. Make your choice. The UK or Saudi Arabia?

Your false dichotomy is truly ridiculous.Truly, truly ridiculous.

 

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Oddly enough I do agree with that. But despite that, the point made, 'We want all the benefits of living in a liberal democracy without any of the responsibilities or sacrifices' is a far more telling and important one.

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We have been living through a blip in history, The relative comfort the west has enjoyed has been funded from the fading embers of the European Empires and the petrochemical despotism (hydraulic despotism but with oil) of the American empire. It wasn't that long ago we were all torturing women to death for knowing which herbs were good for pain relief or chopping the balls off men for daring to demand their country back. It wouldn't take much for us to go back to that. The political class in Britain seem to be really keen on it and they aren't Arabs or Persians (didn't the token Muslim have to resign for blaming Jews for his bad motoring?). The Oil is the Car, the Car is the Oil.
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TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

There will never be peaceful segregation between communities while one community chooses to shut themselves off from everyone else and refuse to even try to integrate with the local people. That creates division and ill feeling,  when that's the first thing you should be looking to avoid. And this is the alienation problem the majority of people have with the Muslim communities. There are areas of East London where road names are written in Arabic for crying out loud. They don't want to integrate and they never will integrate.

I know what you mean! Look at the endless strife between Chinese Americans and us REAL Americans over here. The violence and strife never stops! Their ethnic enclaves as bastions of crime (you can go there and buy illegal fireworks!) Chinatown my ass. More like "HateAmericaBurg!"

And don't get me started on all the Mexican's here in California. They live together in their little communities, (the ones we let them buy, over by the lettuce farms), speaking Spanish, planning to never integrate. Why can't they be like all the GOOD Mexicans from the last generation, who's kids are all English speakers, and fully integrated within three generations.

And I know that despite the history of all immigrant ethnic groups in the history of the world always assimilating every time ever always, I know THIS batch, this current batch, are just no good.

 

Hugh said:

Resisitance is not futile?

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Bingowings said:

We have been living through a blip in history, The relative comfort the west has enjoyed has been funded from the fading embers of the European Empires and the petrochemical despotism (hydraulic despotism but with oil) of the American empire. It wasn't that long ago we were all torturing women to death for knowing which herbs were good for pain relief or chopping the balls off men for daring to demand their country back. It wouldn't take much for us to go back to that. The political class in Britain seem to be really keen on it and they aren't Arabs or Persians (didn't the token Muslim have to resign for blaming Jews for his bad motoring?). The Oil is the Car, the Car is the Oil.

Shun economic prosperity! We'll be back to torturing, holistic medicine, neutering, and all the rest soon enough. Entropy demands it.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Indeed the torture and repression of the West backed 'democratic' regimes largely created Islamism as it is currently recognised.

My spell check notes that you've misspelled "recognized."

Silly American spell checker.

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Hey, it's me. said:

And make no mistake, Sharia Law is a dictatorship.

Um, no, it isn't.

Unless you are using some strange use of the word "dictatorship" which I wasn't previously aware of.

 

Bingowings said:

There are a lot of Muslims so the probability of finding a Muslim abuser of women is statistically higher than finding a Sikh abuser of women.

Sure, you find abusive men in any culture, or belief system. The difference here is that Islamic doctrine supports the abuse of women. You can't deny that women's rights are almost nonexistent in predominantly Islamic nations.

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TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

And this is where the conflict stems from. Western Europe has increasingly become a more secular society over the years. The majority don't need religion to tell them how to live their lives. We've moved on. They don't like the way we live? Then stay in their own fucking country. That's all it boils down to.

The "way we live" is itself a troubling statement that can pretty much be used to justify anything, and oppress anyone.

So would you prefer to live under the rules of a western democracy, or under a Sharia controlled dictatorship? And make no mistake, Sharia Law is a dictatorship. Make your choice. The UK or Saudi Arabia?

Your false dichotomy is truly ridiculous.Truly, truly ridiculous.

 

Gaaaah! There really are lessons to be learned and precautions to be taken here. Unfortunately, you have one side that is far too willing to sit back and say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander", like Bingo. While the other side makes ridiculous claims and drags it too far in the other direction.

Guys with views like Hey It's Me's makes guys with similar opinions to me on the subject look like loonies because we all get categorized together. 

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Mrebo said:

Bingowings said:

We have been living through a blip in history, The relative comfort the west has enjoyed has been funded from the fading embers of the European Empires and the petrochemical despotism (hydraulic despotism but with oil) of the American empire. It wasn't that long ago we were all torturing women to death for knowing which herbs were good for pain relief or chopping the balls off men for daring to demand their country back. It wouldn't take much for us to go back to that. The political class in Britain seem to be really keen on it and they aren't Arabs or Persians (didn't the token Muslim have to resign for blaming Jews for his bad motoring?). The Oil is the Car, the Car is the Oil.

Shun economic prosperity! We'll be back to torturing, holistic medicine, neutering, and all the rest soon enough. Entropy demands it.

Manufactured plutocratic energy monopolies are not a stable basis for economic prosperity. They create economic cycles which inevitably lead to catastrophic (for most of us) financial crises. Leading to threads like this and as you say universal homeopathic provision.

They are good for maintaining a tiny mega wealthy elite but that was true of ancient civilisations the Egyptians, The Aztecs, The Romans etc, almost all of them had some form of human sacrifice.

Oil is a finite and polluting resource that is only currently in use because of the understandable desire of oil dynasties and their creditors to remain as the capstone of the pyramid.

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CP3S said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

And this is where the conflict stems from. Western Europe has increasingly become a more secular society over the years. The majority don't need religion to tell them how to live their lives. We've moved on. They don't like the way we live? Then stay in their own fucking country. That's all it boils down to.

The "way we live" is itself a troubling statement that can pretty much be used to justify anything, and oppress anyone.

So would you prefer to live under the rules of a western democracy, or under a Sharia controlled dictatorship? And make no mistake, Sharia Law is a dictatorship. Make your choice. The UK or Saudi Arabia?

Your false dichotomy is truly ridiculous.Truly, truly ridiculous.

 

Gaaaah! There really are lessons to be learned and precautions to be taken here. Unfortunately, you have one side that is far too willing to sit back and say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander", like Bingo. While the other side makes ridiculous claims and drags it too far in the other direction.

Guys with views like Hey It's Me's makes guys with similar opinions to me on the subject look like loonies because we all get categorized together. 

So my opinion is that of a lunatic?