Anyone hate Return of the Jedi?

I was nine when I saw Return of the Jedi in '83 and I liked the ewoks. It is my least favourite of the OT now but was my favourite from age nine to about twelve. Is there anyone who is a few years older that loves Star Wars and Empire but hates Jedi? Younger people feel free to post your thoughts too of course.

If I was four or five years older I'm not sure how I would have felt about it at all. I think I would have still enjoyed Jabba's Palace but might have hated the rest of the movie. George definitely went a bit Walt Disney on our asses.

I heard a rumour ages back that dealing with companies like McDonalds put pressure on him to make the movie more kid-friendly so they could sell more happy meals. Can anyone confirm or deny this conspiracy theory?

How are you stuck with the 97 SE?

And I'm ok with ROTJ.  We both accept each others flaws.

Loved it as a kid (saw it in '83 when i was 10 years old).  Through the years I have come to realize that the movie is so much more inferior to Star Wars and Empire.  I will never hate the movie simply because it is part III to my beloved Trilogy I grew up with, but it will always be the least watched of the OT for me.

I have to say Jedi is the movie that is most ruined by Lucas changes.  'Jedi Rocks' shows that Lucas has lost touch on what is cool in movies today, and Hayden in the Force Ghost scene shows that Lucas has lost touch into what the damn story is about!

SilverWook said:

It's been a love hate thing with me over the decades. Ewoks could have been more vicious in battle, (they may have been tamed in the editing process) but I don't loathe them as much as Gungans.

The heart of the movie is still the Luke/Vader/Emperor conflict. Luke going temporarily darkside crazy and wailing on Vader is still more interesting than Super Mario Jedi in ROTS. ;)

There were never SW happy meals. The only major fast food tie ins were the Burger King glasses. Something the new Star Trek movie actually brought back!

OK, happy meal theory... DENIED! Luke/Vader/Emperor I would still have enjoyed too.

timdiggerm said:

You know, I thought I hated it, but I watched it last night (DJ's GOUT V3 if you care, though I really do like the SE/2004 ending music and interplanetary party), and I was amazed at how much I liked it, post-Jabba. The Jabba stuff...needs work.

It was overly long and needlessly complicated. But the sheer presence of Jabba and the wealth of REAL creatures in the form of puppets and latex/makeup was just exhilarating at that age. I take it most of you regulars have seen docos like Star Wars to Jedi? I am still amazed at the complexity and effectiveness of that giant three-man puppet Hutt. And even if you don't like Lapti Nek (I think everyone hates Jedi Rocks don't they?) Phil Tippett dancing the Sy Snootles "reverse" puppet from under the stage is still absolutely brilliant. I definitely enjoy the Luke/Vader/Emperor side to the story as I corrected above too, but the second Death Star battle and planet of the teddy bears is lame.

Strangely though you guys are confirming my theory so far. I think sometimes I should hate it. I have actively tried to hate it. I never do. Maybe it's just impossible to hate. There MUST have been fans that saw it at age fifteen or so and thought "What the F!@# was that? Ewoks? Star Wars is ruined! But I've never met one.

Anchorhead said:

I've never cared for it.  In 1983,  I took the day off to be part of the opening day hype.  I was so let down that I considered walking out.  20 minutes or so into the film I started having my doubts.  3PO telling the story to plush toys was what finally started the long goodbye. I came out of the theater very disappointed.

I saw it again around 1997 or so.  We used to do Lunchtime Theater at work. We'd watch films in 45-minute installments during our lunch hour, in a nice conference room. That's the last time I saw it.  It still did nothing for me.

Oh boy, here we go....

;-)

...

In all seriousness Anchorhead, you should start a thread and put your feelings about Star Wars and the sequels in the OP, then whenever you get this question you can just point to the thread.

Anchorhead said:

I don't want to come across as an angry fan.

I don't think you need to worry about that.  Your posts are typically very level-headed.

Anchorhead said:

Maybe a blog type of deal where I could at least use it for some of my other interests - motorcycles, beekeeping, wine, travel, etc.

I don't read blogs. I would read that blog. Just sayin'.

There was a brief period when I was around 10 or so that RotJ was actually my favourite, but that didn't really last.  These days, I easily perceive that it's not at all on the same level as the first two movies, but I could never hate it.  It's still a solid film that I enjoy watching a great deal, even if its flaws are more pronounced.

Dude, the music when Luke defeats Vader is one of the most awesomely epic things I've ever heard!

So much so that in my 5.1 version I deliberately made it stand out more than it does in the '93 mix, replacing it from the 35mm version and boosting it a bit.  Now the music carries the scene even more, rather than being slightly edged out by the lightsabre crashes.  ;)

The irony of the PT is that it actually made me look more unfavorably towards Jedi, because you can see the seeds of SW getting shitty in 1983, and it comes full circle in 2005. Back in the mid 90's, I thought Jedi was just a hiccup by Lucas (so I enjoyed the movie with a grain of salt), but now you see things are alot more clear now as to where the movies were headed.

For many fans like myself who love Star Wars and Empire, and think the SW universe gets worse after 1980, that means the SW saga has only 2 great movies out of 6.  That is a 33% rate for all you Saga defenders on that new Facebook page who are about to pay 100+ dollars for that boxset ;)

Anchorhead said:

Star Wars77 is all I have any interest in,  film-wise.

That's good enough for me. Star Wars stands on its own without the rest of the OT, its complications, most if not all of its controversy and ramping levels of debate to match. My take so far is this: you can't accept the OT without accepting Jedi. Maybe that is why most fans love Jedi or at least begrudge it its place in the trilogy without hate: If you can only accept Star Wars and Empire the bad guys win :(

CO said:

The irony of the PT is that it actually made me look more unfavorably towards Jedi, because you can see the seeds of SW getting shitty in 1983, and it comes full circle in 2005. Back in the mid 90's, I thought Jedi was just a hiccup by Lucas (so I enjoyed the movie with a grain of salt), but now you see things are alot more clear now as to where the movies were headed.

For many fans like myself who love Star Wars and Empire, and think the SW universe gets worse after 1980, that means the SW saga has only 2 great movies out of 6. That is a 33% rate for all you Saga defenders on that new Facebook page who are about to pay 100+ dollars for that boxset ;)

I'm not sure I like your attitude ;) It is easy to see Jedi/the ewoks as the beginning of the end, but it sounds like you are taking the same stance as these "Saga defenders" by acknowledging a saga at all. For me it is easier to separate the PT material than to look more unfavourably on Jedi because of the PT.

I think I even like the inconsistencies, and continuity be damned; that makes it easier for me to FORGET about the PT while I am watching the far superior OT. I enjoy the Phantom's edits as a separate entity to the OT like the Clone Wars cartoon, and to be honest I have seen ROTS twice and barely remember it.

I don't really want to send my own Jedi thread off-topic but I agree with you on one thing - I for damn sure won't be buying the box set (unless they restore the OOT). Also your 33% theory doesn't hold up. As I have scientifically proven above you must accept Jedi to accept the OT :P So that gives you 50% right there. That's a pass in Australia but I don't know about other countries. In the US you need 60% right? :(

edit: Sorry I shouldn't be flippant with you CO as you are one of the fans that I was looking for. I just didn't really want the PT brought into it. Do you watch Jedi at all? Are you satisfied with Empire as a conclusion to a two-part saga? Or do you just get to the end of Empire and go "Meh I remember...Rancor, Jabba, skimpy Leia, Death Star, Ewoks, Lightsabers, explosion. Been there, done that."?

I don't hate it.

It has some nice moments and Mark is perfect.

Some of the special effects are amazing even now (others are really awful).

It did play out as the contractual obligation episode of the OT and now it points to the direction that PT would later follow.

The plot frequently makes no sense (Luke's Han rescue plan makes as much sense as the Clone mystery in AOTC and succeeds largely because it had to succeed because it's in the beginning of the film rather than any part of the plan itself).

The problem with the Ewoks isn't the Ewoks themselves but the way they are portrayed.

They never come across as small, furry alien people and always seem like small humans in costume.

The Galactic Empire shrinks from a large hierarchically structured junta ruling thousands of star systems backed with thousands of heavily armed starships and trillions of troops to two old men and a few dozen ships hiding behind one superweapon idea. All it takes is one of them to throw the other down a convenient placed hole in the floor and the whole thing falls apart.

If with a bit of modification Return Of The Jedi was Episode IX and it showed the desperate last gasp of an already collapsing Empire it would make more sense.

Lucas just fell out of love with Star Wars and wanted it over and done with and it shows in the rather cheap looking recycled feel of ROTJ.

I don't think he fell back in love with it with the PT but he missed the money and technological advances meant he could make three more films to sell and keep on selling on a lower than the Hollywood norm budget.

That said, it is fascinating that there is much in ROTJ and the PT that is still enjoyable and visually interesting.

If there had been more love and attention paid to the core of those films (the story and the characters) they could have been as good as the first two and have cost just the same amount.

The only way that they can be made to work is to take them to pieces and reassemble them into largely brand new films.

I still want the theatrical presentations of all six Star Wars films officially restored and available because of their place in cinema history but in terms of enjoyment ROTJ:SE fails as much because of the changes it doesn't make (to make the story and performances make more sense and fix the broken tone) as much as the changes that bugger up the few things that did originally work.