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Anyone else totally disregard Leia being Luke's sister? — Page 9

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I forgot what this thread’s about. Leia’s taste in men?

I want to be naked, running through the streets.
I want to invite this so-called chaos you think I dare not be.
I want to be weightless, flying through the air.
I want to drop all these limitations and return to what I was born to be.

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ToscheStation said:

What I’ll never understand is how someone can find a story as “rich”, “expansive”, and overall “emotionally satisfying”, a version of the Star Wars universe where:

  1. The main character’s parents were people that we’ve never seen or met, and will probably never get to see, barring prequels.

  2. The princess character belongs to a family that (thanks to the Death Star) we’ve never met, nor whom we will ever learn about in potential sequels.

  3. A solitary knight(Ben) with no family or progeny whatsoever.

  4. A villain who for all we know is some one-dimensional guy behind the mask. Nothing to his past, other than having once been a student of the solitary knight character.

That’s the character dynamics of the stand-alone Star Wars film, in a nutshell. I can’t see a story with such characters going beyond a single film.

In The Fellowship of the Ring film, we don’t see the parents or progeny of:

  1. Frodo
  2. Sam
  3. Gandalf
  4. Aragorn
  5. Boromir
  6. Merry
  7. Pippin
  8. Legolas
  9. Gimli

None of the villains had parents that we know of, nor do they have progeny (except for perhaps Sauruman’s weird Orcs).

And yet, I still feel like I can just maybe see the story going beyond a single film.

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Sorry, didn’t know the rule where to have an emotionally satisfying story, you must know every characters’ parents. Thanks for the heads up, will not make this mistake again.

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DominicCobb said:

Sorry, didn’t know the rule where to have an emotionally satisfying story, you must know every characters’ parents. Thanks for the heads up, will not make this mistake again.

Of course! Think about “The Young and the Restless”: we know every details about parents, children, lovers, sisters, brothers, hidden cousins, colleagues, neighbors and dogs.
THAT is what I call an emotionally satisfying story. And there is more than 20 000 episodes! So much better than this tiny weak story about a “Force” whom I don’t even know the last name…

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ZigZig said:

So much better than this tiny weak story about a “Force” whom I don’t even know the last name…

It’s “Majeure”.

I want to be naked, running through the streets.
I want to invite this so-called chaos you think I dare not be.
I want to be weightless, flying through the air.
I want to drop all these limitations and return to what I was born to be.

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Luke, Obi-Wan, Vader and Anakin were all connected from the very start. Making Vader Luke’s father in ESB was a nice way to break with the cliché of “hero avanges his father’s death”. But introducing Leia as Lukes sister didn’t add anything to the plot. In Star Wars, she’s a diplomat and member of a royal family. That’s enough for the plot, we don’t really need to know more. By making her Luke’s sister, you need to explore her background, as it creates more questions than it answers.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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What???
Leia is Luke’s sister???
WTF!

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MJR80 said:

Gotta love the (almost) inbreeding implications…

On a serious note, yes, it does seem like Lucas was making things up as he went along… He may have felt a burden to conjure another “plot twist” or “surprise” like <span class=“Italics”>The Empire Strikes Back</span> had for RotJ (or at least attempt to make it as good as the plot twist in ESB).

Yep, Georgie boy was definitely making things up as he went along. He never should’ve fired Gary Kurtz. Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back but George scrapped that idea much to my chagrin. Instead they went with the version of episode 6 that follows a lot of the same beats as episode 4 does. It’s also quite similar to episode 7. Too much repetition in this saga if ya ask me.

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TV’s Frink said:

ToscheStation said:

…instead of the somewhat ‘claustrophobic’ feel of the original film within the stand-alone movie paradigm.

ANH stands on its own, and does it brilliantly.

Yeah, this is the first time I’ve heard people talk about ANH like it’s a quaint start to a much greater series. Empire is the only piece of Star Wars media that arguably equalled the quality of Star Wars.

Fight the real enemy!

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ToscheStation said:

dahmage said:

But, they DID go beyond just one film, we all have seen it.

Yes, and they were only able to do so (successfully, I might add) because Lucas and co. introduced - or rather, re-introduced - connections (yes, familial) between the characters that made it more…breathable…instead of the somewhat ‘claustrophobic’ feel of the original film within the stand-alone movie paradigm.

I’m sorry, what? What exactly is “claustrophobic” about the plot and characters of Star Wars?

And besides that, from where in the Original Trilogy do we learn anything about Han Solo’s backstory? Prior to and during Star Wars, he was a selfish, scoundrelly smuggler; he had unpaid debts to crime lords; and he won the ship he now owns from his old friend, Lando. That’s it. That’s all we ever learn about his pre-OT past from the OT itself. Does that make him any less of a compelling character, especially in the original Star Wars film?

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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I’m so confused right now.

Though I have to say, the eight Star Wars films must be the eight most interesting pieces of cinema to learn about. What other films have such an intense lore surrounding the making of them?

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

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Jim Smith said:

Yep, Georgie boy was definitely making things up as he went along. He never should’ve fired Gary Kurtz. ** Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back but George scrapped that idea much to my chagrin. Instead they went with the version of episode 6 that follows a lot of the same beats as episode 4 does. ** It’s also quite similar to episode 7. Too much repetition in this saga if ya ask me.

** If we’re going to bring up changing premises, it’s only fair to bring up the fact that the premise(s) of Empire Strikes Back/“Star Wars II” changed almost half-way into the writing process. As per the story treatment and first draft, ESB wasn’t going to leave so many loose ends as the film did. Han doesn’t get frozen in carbonite, and Luke successfully faces his “trial” - i.e. refuses to join Vader and the dark side - and is a Jedi Knight by the end of the story. Thus, the third film wouldn’t have needed to resolve what the second film left unresolved (and no need to stretch the OT’s story into nine episodes).

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okay…disregard all you want. but it wont change the fact that vader is boring as fuck in new hope compared to his empire strikes back self

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Frank your Majesty said:

What has that to do with the topic?

I know you are but what am I?

I want to be naked, running through the streets.
I want to invite this so-called chaos you think I dare not be.
I want to be weightless, flying through the air.
I want to drop all these limitations and return to what I was born to be.

Author
Time

ToscheStation said:

Jim Smith said:

Yep, Georgie boy was definitely making things up as he went along. He never should’ve fired Gary Kurtz. ** Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back but George scrapped that idea much to my chagrin. Instead they went with the version of episode 6 that follows a lot of the same beats as episode 4 does. ** It’s also quite similar to episode 7. Too much repetition in this saga if ya ask me.

** If we’re going to bring up changing premises, it’s only fair to bring up the fact that the premise(s) of Empire Strikes Back/“Star Wars II” changed almost half-way into the writing process. As per the story treatment and first draft, ESB wasn’t going to leave so many loose ends as the film did. Han doesn’t get frozen in carbonite, and Luke successfully faces his “trial” - i.e. refuses to join Vader and the dark side - and is a Jedi Knight by the end of the story. Thus, the third film wouldn’t have needed to resolve what the second film left unresolved (and no need to stretch the OT’s story into nine episodes).

And Vader wasn’t going to be Luke’s daddy in the earlier draft of the script for The Empire Strikes Back either. It still stands that Return of the Jedi would’ve still been a whole lot better if Irvin Kershner filmed the original ideas for The Empire Strikes Back. But then again maybe the original Star Wars trilogy only should’ve been 2 films. Hell anymore I just mainly watch the original along with the new Rogue One nowadays. 😄

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Jim Smith said:

ToscheStation said:

Jim Smith said:

Yep, Georgie boy was definitely making things up as he went along. He never should’ve fired Gary Kurtz. ** Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back but George scrapped that idea much to my chagrin. Instead they went with the version of episode 6 that follows a lot of the same beats as episode 4 does. ** It’s also quite similar to episode 7. Too much repetition in this saga if ya ask me.

** If we’re going to bring up changing premises, it’s only fair to bring up the fact that the premise(s) of Empire Strikes Back/“Star Wars II” changed almost half-way into the writing process. As per the story treatment and first draft, ESB wasn’t going to leave so many loose ends as the film did. Han doesn’t get frozen in carbonite, and Luke successfully faces his “trial” - i.e. refuses to join Vader and the dark side - and is a Jedi Knight by the end of the story. Thus, the third film wouldn’t have needed to resolve what the second film left unresolved (and no need to stretch the OT’s story into nine episodes).

And Vader wasn’t going to be Luke’s daddy in the earlier draft of the script for The Empire Strikes Back either. It still stands that Return of the Jedi would’ve still been a whole lot better if Irvin Kershner filmed the original ideas for The Empire Strikes Back. But then again maybe the original Star Wars trilogy only should’ve been 2 films. Hell anymore I just mainly watch the original along with the new Rogue One nowadays. 😄

Where can I read this early TESB draft that you speak of?

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ZodaEX said:

Jim Smith said:

ToscheStation said:

Jim Smith said:

Yep, Georgie boy was definitely making things up as he went along. He never should’ve fired Gary Kurtz. ** Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back but George scrapped that idea much to my chagrin. Instead they went with the version of episode 6 that follows a lot of the same beats as episode 4 does. ** It’s also quite similar to episode 7. Too much repetition in this saga if ya ask me.

** If we’re going to bring up changing premises, it’s only fair to bring up the fact that the premise(s) of Empire Strikes Back/“Star Wars II” changed almost half-way into the writing process. As per the story treatment and first draft, ESB wasn’t going to leave so many loose ends as the film did. Han doesn’t get frozen in carbonite, and Luke successfully faces his “trial” - i.e. refuses to join Vader and the dark side - and is a Jedi Knight by the end of the story. Thus, the third film wouldn’t have needed to resolve what the second film left unresolved (and no need to stretch the OT’s story into nine episodes).

And Vader wasn’t going to be Luke’s daddy in the earlier draft of the script for The Empire Strikes Back either. It still stands that Return of the Jedi would’ve still been a whole lot better if Irvin Kershner filmed the original ideas for The Empire Strikes Back. But then again maybe the original Star Wars trilogy only should’ve been 2 films. Hell anymore I just mainly watch the original along with the new Rogue One nowadays. 😄

Where can I read this early TESB draft that you speak of?

https://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the-empire-strikes-back-first-draft-by-leigh-brackett-transcript/

I want to be naked, running through the streets.
I want to invite this so-called chaos you think I dare not be.
I want to be weightless, flying through the air.
I want to drop all these limitations and return to what I was born to be.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The bigger issue with the ‘Leia as other hope’ thing is the fact that she simply couldn’t have been an option at the time of Yoda’s original declaration in ESB. When Yoda said “there is another”, Luke was flying off to Bespin to rescue Leia - the same Leia whose fate Yoda could not see and who Yoda had just encouraged Luke to sacrifice for the greater good. She simply wasn’t an option at that point, sister or no.

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Shopping Maul said:

The bigger issue with the ‘Leia as other hope’ thing is the fact that she simply couldn’t have been an option at the time of Yoda’s original declaration in ESB. When Yoda said “there is another”, Luke was flying off to Bespin to rescue Leia - the same Leia whose fate Yoda could not see and who Yoda had just encouraged Luke to sacrifice for the greater good. She simply wasn’t an option at that point, sister or no.

Great catch. Yoda does basically want Luke to sacrifice his friends for the greater good and stay on Dagobah to finish his Jedi training. Yoda pulled his line of, “There is another.” directly out of his green ass.

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Jim Smith said:

Shopping Maul said:

The bigger issue with the ‘Leia as other hope’ thing is the fact that she simply couldn’t have been an option at the time of Yoda’s original declaration in ESB. When Yoda said “there is another”, Luke was flying off to Bespin to rescue Leia - the same Leia whose fate Yoda could not see and who Yoda had just encouraged Luke to sacrifice for the greater good. She simply wasn’t an option at that point, sister or no.

Great catch. Yoda does basically want Luke to sacrifice his friends for the greater good and stay on Dagobah to finish his Jedi training. Yoda pulled his line of, “There is another.” directly out of his green ass.

Or Luke pulled the idea of Leia being his sister out of his not-yet-Jedi ass, and Ben just let him believe it.

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NeverarGreat said:

Jim Smith said:

Shopping Maul said:

The bigger issue with the ‘Leia as other hope’ thing is the fact that she simply couldn’t have been an option at the time of Yoda’s original declaration in ESB. When Yoda said “there is another”, Luke was flying off to Bespin to rescue Leia - the same Leia whose fate Yoda could not see and who Yoda had just encouraged Luke to sacrifice for the greater good. She simply wasn’t an option at that point, sister or no.

Great catch. Yoda does basically want Luke to sacrifice his friends for the greater good and stay on Dagobah to finish his Jedi training. Yoda pulled his line of, “There is another.” directly out of his green ass.

Or Luke pulled the idea of Leia being his sister out of his not-yet-Jedi ass, and Ben just let him believe it.

I want to believe this, but it requires Ben being too outrageous.

“After a time, you may find that having, is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.” - Spock

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chyron8472 said:

I’m sorry, what? What exactly is “claustrophobic” about the plot and characters of Star Wars?

And besides that, from where in the Original Trilogy do we learn anything about Han Solo’s backstory? Prior to and during Star Wars, he was a selfish, scoundrelly smuggler; he had unpaid debts to crime lords; and he won the ship he now owns from his old friend, Lando. That’s it. That’s all we ever learn about his pre-OT past from the OT itself. Does that make him any less of a compelling character, especially in the original Star Wars film?

The “claustrophobic” element I refer to is the “popular” reading of the first film, whereby none of the character’s in the film have a literal, familial relationship to Luke, and if any of them do, this somehow ruins the integrity of the film. A reading which was borne out of Lucas having to make the film work as a stand-alone film, something Lucas was forced to deal with due to practical/real-world movie making considerations. *

Notice that I don’t posit that Han or Ben were related to Luke. We are only taking about Vader and Leia here. If Leia being Luke’s sister is universe shrinking, how in the world is Vader being Annikin/Anakin not?

Vader having a secret identity under the mask was not out of storytelling bounds in the least, whether he was Ben’s estranged son, Luke’s older brother, his illegitimate father, Luke’s uncle/Annikin’s (younger?) brother, etc. Leia, otoh, could have been Luke’s “cousin” (iow, the Lar’s child, from the second draft), a half-sister to Luke (but older than him, rather than younger, as the public script implies with their character ages).

*Ben being killed off, the Tarkin/Vader dynamic in terms of the Imperial hierarchy, the implication that the Death Star is the key keeping the Empire under control, are all things that make the first film work on it’s own

edit:
I would say that each film of the OT was designed to work on it’s own (yes, even TESB), as much as and maybe even more so than being designed to work within an overall trilogy/saga.