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Anyone else totally disregard Leia being Luke's sister? — Page 11

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adywan said:

ToscheStation said:

Jim Smith said:

Yep, Georgie boy was definitely making things up as he went along. He never should’ve fired Gary Kurtz. Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back but George scrapped that idea much to my chagrin. Instead they went with the version of episode 6 that follows a lot of the same beats as episode 4 does. It’s also quite similar to episode 7. Too much repetition in this saga if ya ask me.

“Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back”

The way Lucas described “book three” back in Dec 1975 says otherwise:

“In the third book I want the story to be just about the soap opera of the Skywalker family, which ends with the destruction of the Empire.”

The third “book” they talks about was NOT ROTJ. This was to be the later episodes. Right up until ROTJ was in pre-production, ROTJ was not to be the final episode. The confrontation with the Emperor and defeat of the empire was to have been in those later episodes. Episode 6 WAS originally going to be darker. With Luke being separated from his friends at the end, going off to search for his sister (who was not Leia). When Lucas decided he didn’t want to make any more SW films, he brought those plans forward, dropped the search for the “other” Skywalker and made Leia the sister.

No, book three means book three, not books 3,4,5, and 6. The idea of stretching the story out for 3/4 more movies comes from Gary Kurtz in the 90’s. There’s nothing from the late 70’s of Kurtz and co. mentioning the current story being stretched into Episodes 7-8-9. Those episodes were to be the sequel trilogy featuring the trio as older characters. I would take things Lucas and Kurtz said during meetings in 1975 over what either one of them says in latter days.*

I wish I still had the Alan Arnold “Once Upon A Galaxy” making of ESB book (1980). I seem to remember in that book or in an issue of Starlog from 80 or 81 Kurtz expressing concern with the way ESB is structured that it leaves the third film to resolve everything (!). Kurtz’ concern for the following movie may have been the impetus for proposing that the story get extended for three of four more films. edit: But once Kurtz is on record saying it in the late nineties or so, all of a sudden it becomes the “gospel” of what-was-the-original-plan for the saga.

*I do believe that ever since the OT came out both Lucas AND Kurtz have obfuscated things about how the original trilogy was supposed to go

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ToscheStation said:

Sounds like you’re talking about TFA/TLJ/The Sequel Trilogy :

[DuracellEnergizer said:]>
Nope, Lucas ain’t much of a writer. That’s why we got universe-shrinkage, a mystery subplot which went nowhere, and a whole lot of other crap which didn’t need focusing on in the prequels.

“Universe-shrinkage” (wut) - Sequel trilogy solution: Rey is “nobody”, Rebels Vs. Empire 2.0
"Midi-chlorians" - S. T. solution: Force-download-presto-instant-Jedi!
“Mystery subplot which went nowhere” - Sequel trilogy (ahem): Rey’s parents/Jakku, Snoke

And if I actually liked the ST, this would be a profound revelation to me.

The quintessential TLJ debate on ot.com.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

ToscheStation said:

Sounds like you’re talking about TFA/TLJ/The Sequel Trilogy :

[DuracellEnergizer said:]>
Nope, Lucas ain’t much of a writer. That’s why we got universe-shrinkage, a mystery subplot which went nowhere, and a whole lot of other crap which didn’t need focusing on in the prequels.

“Universe-shrinkage” (wut) - Sequel trilogy solution: Rey is “nobody”, Rebels Vs. Empire 2.0
"Midi-chlorians" - S. T. solution: Force-download-presto-instant-Jedi!
“Mystery subplot which went nowhere” - Sequel trilogy (ahem): Rey’s parents/Jakku, Snoke

And if I actually liked the ST, this would be a profound revelation to me.

I had to be sure…
At any rate, keeping things in perspective re: Lucas being “not much” of a writer (something he himself would admit)

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ToscheStation said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

ToscheStation said:

Sounds like you’re talking about TFA/TLJ/The Sequel Trilogy :

[DuracellEnergizer said:]>
Nope, Lucas ain’t much of a writer. That’s why we got universe-shrinkage, a mystery subplot which went nowhere, and a whole lot of other crap which didn’t need focusing on in the prequels.

“Universe-shrinkage” (wut) - Sequel trilogy solution: Rey is “nobody”, Rebels Vs. Empire 2.0
"Midi-chlorians" - S. T. solution: Force-download-presto-instant-Jedi!
“Mystery subplot which went nowhere” - Sequel trilogy (ahem): Rey’s parents/Jakku, Snoke

And if I actually liked the ST, this would be a profound revelation to me.

Perspective, really re: Lucas as a “failed” writer

“From my point of view perspective, both the PT & ST are evil!”

The quintessential TLJ debate on ot.com.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

ToscheStation said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

ToscheStation said:

Sounds like you’re talking about TFA/TLJ/The Sequel Trilogy :

[DuracellEnergizer said:]>
Nope, Lucas ain’t much of a writer. That’s why we got universe-shrinkage, a mystery subplot which went nowhere, and a whole lot of other crap which didn’t need focusing on in the prequels.

“Universe-shrinkage” (wut) - Sequel trilogy solution: Rey is “nobody”, Rebels Vs. Empire 2.0
"Midi-chlorians" - S. T. solution: Force-download-presto-instant-Jedi!
“Mystery subplot which went nowhere” - Sequel trilogy (ahem): Rey’s parents/Jakku, Snoke

And if I actually liked the ST, this would be a profound revelation to me.

Perspective, really re: Lucas as a “failed” writer

“From my point of view perspective, both the PT & ST are evil!”

To each his own. I’d also take the Thrawn trilogy EU over either. But I would probably have gone for Lucas’ ST over the one that actually got made.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Also, Skywalker wasn’t even the name until the movie started filming in 1976. It’s still Starkiller in the shooting script.

They actually shot some scenes with it. “I’m Luke Starkiller and I’m here to rescue you!”

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For the second movie of a supposed six-movie continuous narrative, TESB sure has a lot of reveals:

  1. The character of Yoda
  2. Lando
  3. The Emperor (via-hologram)
  4. Vader “I am your father”
  5. “No, there is another”
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ToscheStation said:

For the second movie of a supposed nine-movie continuous narrative, TESB sure has a lot of reveals:

  1. The character of Yoda
  2. Lando
  3. The Emperor (via-hologram)
  4. Vader “I am your father”
  5. “No, there is another”

This … is a ROTJ thread? I feel like I missed something.

Yub Nub for life

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Mocata said:> >

This … is a ROTJ thread? I feel like I missed something.

It has to do with the perception that Lucas had taken the storyline - which according to the stated theory was supposed to have gone on for four more films/episodes following TESB - and “compressed” it into a single film, ROTJ. In light of that perception, I think it’s relevant to bring up how much is revealed in the second film (TESB) and wonder how this really coheres with a notional six-part continuous story (SW + TESB + four more films), rather than a trilogy of trilogies with twenty some years between each trilogy.

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ToscheStation said:
It has to do with the perception that Lucas had taken the storyline - which according to the stated theory was supposed to have gone on for four more films/episodes following TESB - and “compressed” it into a single film, ROTJ. In light of that perception, I think it’s relevant to bring up how much is revealed in the second film (TESB) and wonder how this really coheres with a notional six-part continuous story (SW + TESB + four more films), rather than a trilogy of trilogies with twenty some years between each trilogy.

Unless I’m wrong, that theory is false. Are you speaking of what Gary Kurtz said some years ago? He was confused and was talking of several ideas for the Star Wars franchise at the same time; the planned storyline Kurtz mentioned was never materialized or conceived in any way. As far as I know, Lucas first conceived Star Wars as a standalone movie, then as The Adventures of Luke Skywalker (with film or book sequels of SW) or as a franchise where every director could have complete freedom to do whatever movie they wanted, then (before February to April 1978) as The Adventures of Luke Skywalker with TESB being Episode or Chapter II and with unlimited sequels, then as a trilogy of trilogies with SW and TESB being Episodes IV and V, then as two trilogies (the Star Wars Trilogy and an unmade prequel trilogy), then as a hexalogy Saga. Lucas, Kurtz or anyone else never thought of a hexalogy with SW and TESB being the first two movies. The closest idea comes from the period between May 1977 and February 1978, where the Star Wars franchise was The Adventures of Luke Skywalker but there was no planned chronology or storyline at all, no fixed number of sequels.

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i believe star wars was a standalone, tesb the fifth in a nine part story, and rotj the sixth in an hexalogy. i also think that during pre production and before pre production even started for tesb, the idea was to make twelve films, where star wars was the first and tesb the second, and so on.

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Collipso said:

i believe star wars was a standalone, tesb the fifth in a nine part story, and rotj the sixth in an hexalogy. i also think that during pre production and before pre production even started for tesb, the idea was to make twelve films, where star wars was the first and tesb the second, and so on.

Lucas’s notes (which I can’t seem to find) for the twelve part saga go Prologue, PT, Interlude, OT, Interlude, ST, meaning ANH would’ve been Episode VI.

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I actually totally disregard Return of the Jedi to tell you the truth. Yeah the inbreeding crap is pretty atrocious writing.

Reality sucks, watch movies.

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MJR80 said:

Gotta love the (almost) inbreeding implications…

On a serious note, yes, it does seem like Lucas was making things up as he went along… He may have felt a burden to conjure another “plot twist” or “surprise” like <span class=“Italics”>The Empire Strikes Back</span> had for RotJ (or at least attempt to make it as good as the plot twist in ESB).

Yes!

I grew up with her being his sister, so it didn’t bother me then.
But after watching the series as an adult, you can tell it wasn’t planned that way. I really like the idea that Leia is NOT Luke’s sister, and although they have a emotional Bond, Leia still falls for Han anyways. A nice twist on the trope that the hero always gets the girl. Something different.
Oh, but he only doesn’t get the girl because she turns out to be his sister…That’s lame. And weird, considering the kiss.
And your telling me Vader didn’t sense any Force connection when he interrogated Leia? Come on.

No. Once I read that the original plan was to have Luke discover he had a sister on the other side of the galaxy, and Return of the Jedi ending with Han dead, Leia resuming some powerful leader position in the newly restored Republic, and Luke walking off into the sunset to go in search of his lost sister…awesome.

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The Autistic Asexual said:

I actually totally disregard Return of the Jedi to tell you the truth. Yeah the inbreeding crap is pretty atrocious writing.

I’ve never seen this version of ROTJ.

Voss Caltrez said:

No. Once I read that the original plan was to have Luke discover he had a sister on the other side of the galaxy, and Return of the Jedi ending with Han dead, Leia resuming some powerful leader position in the newly restored Republic, and Luke walking off into the sunset to go in search of his lost sister…awesome.

Awesome or not, it’s still a synopsis that hasn’t ever really been verified by Kasdan and the others as something they were seriously considering*, unlike the idea of Luke putting on Vader’s helmet and pretending to point the Death Star’s weapon at The Emperor’s home world - an idea which DID come from Kasdan (and yes, Death Star II was even in earlier versions of the story).

*nor was the above synopsis shown to be contemporary within the time period that they were making the movie, i.e. the early eighties. At best, this anecdote seems to come from the late eighties but more solidly from the nineties.

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The Autistic Asexual said:

I actually totally disregard Return of the Jedi to tell you the truth. Yeah the inbreeding crap is pretty atrocious writing.

That didn’t happen in RotJ. At all.
Leia was never romantically interested in Luke (in the films, anyway).
She kisses Luke in ESB to make Han jealous and get him to stick around, not at all because she’s interested in Luke.
This “love triangle” must come from the EU, because it isn’t in the movies.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Inbreeding crap? Hahaha. I don’t think the criticism should be taken that seriously.

But to make a counter-argument, Ray, I definitely think it is there

Look at this deleted scene from ESB. Luke and Leia were clearly written with some romantic interest.
https://youtu.be/w7IDByqnP1A

Leia also kisses Luke after they rescue him from Cloud City, when he is laying on the bunk in the Falcon. I mean I agree you can kinda write it off as her just really caring about Luke, but you can’t blame anyone for feeling the love triangle was apparent.

Also you can’t forget this little interaction in ANH when Luke asks Han what he thinks about her, and Luke is clearly a little jealous. Yes, you can write it off as platonic, but it is there.

Also, gotta say I feel Mark was playing up this interaction to be a little flirty.
https://youtu.be/lWYtpdcbLEM

Again, I don’t think it is a big deal. I wouldn’t say it is ever really blatant enough to be INCEST, but there is definitely enough there for it to be ironic and a little awkward in retrospect. It doesn’t diminish my enjoyment of these movies whatsoever. You can easily write it off as them instantly having a close relationship. They didn’t know what it was at first, but I think their relationship evolved into being like family, being caring and protective of one another.

If you can rationalize it if you want to and still enjoy it, but I definitely think they weren’t sure if Luke and Leia would end up as a couple until they got to writing Return of the Jedi. If Harrison decided not to come back for ESB or ROTJ, the option was open.

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RogueLeader said:

to make a counter-argument, Ray, I definitely think it is there

Look at this deleted scene from ESB. Luke and Leia were clearly written with some romantic interest.
https://youtu.be/w7IDByqnP1A

Deleted scenes aren’t in the movie, so they don’t count.

Leia also kisses Luke after they rescue him from Cloud City, when he is laying on the bunk in the Falcon. I mean I agree you can kinda write it off as her just really caring about Luke, but you can’t blame anyone for feeling the love triangle was apparent.

She was caring for him. I’ve had girls do the same while I’m having one of my terrible migraines. Doesn’t mean they want to sleep with me.

Also you can’t forget this little interaction in ANH when Luke asks Han what he thinks about her, and Luke is clearly a little jealous. Yes, you can write it off as platonic, but it is there.

Luke liked the pretty girl. No doubt, no problem.

Also, gotta say I feel Mark was playing up this interaction to be a little flirty.
https://youtu.be/lWYtpdcbLEM

Again, Luke likes the pretty girl.

If you can rationalize it if you want to and still enjoy it, but I definitely think they weren’t sure if Luke and Leia would end up as a couple until they got to writing Return of the Jedi. If Harrison decided not to come back for ESB or ROTJ, the option was open.

I don’t think they were sure either, but there’s nothing in the films that ever made me think Luke would get the girl, or even that he had a chance with her. She’s dismissive of him right away, and intrigued by Han instantly. The only time this is questioned is by Han in RotJ, and that’s stupid since they confessed love for one another at the end of ESB and at the beginning of RotJ.
I just don’t see it and CERTAINLY don’t see anything close to incest in the OT.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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I agree totally with your perspective on it, that’s how I see it too, I’m just saying that the writers probably wrote their interactions with a possible romance in mind, and the actors also took that into account into their performances. Like that deleted scene, they didn’t know it was going to be deleted, so that scene still informed the rest of their interactions in that film.

I don’t blame anyone who sees it, because that was always in the back of their minds during the production of these films and that can’t be denied, I just personally choose to view it as a close, platonic relationship like you do, too.

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When SW was written, the intention was that Luke and Leia would ultimately end up together (simply because that’s how these kinds of stories usually work). Saying that she’s immediately “dismissive” of Luke but “instantly intrigued” by Han is an incredible misrepresentation of what happens. She’s immediately dismissive of both of them, but quickly comes to respect Luke while the same cannot be said for Han. What you’re seeing is simply that Leia happens to have more chemistry with Han.

When they wrote ESB, they clearly noticed this, so they decided to add the Han/Leia romance with a strong love triangle in mind. This was prominent in early drafts and deleted scenes. When it finally came down to it, and the film was trimmed to what it is with extraneous bits removed, we ultimately have a movie where Luke expresses no romantic interest in Leia and vice versa, only one scene where Leia kisses Luke to make Han jealous (with any other romantic context for their kiss completely left out on the cutting room floor).

So in the end, yes, the love triangle never manifested. SW very lightly suggests that Luke and Leia might be a thing, but in the context of the next two films, it is much easier to ignore this and focus on Leia and Han’s bickering, which while not romantic in the original became such in ESB (which retroactively make them seem so in the first film).

Inbreeding never had anything to do with it, and thank god that one poster who always talked about that hasn’t popped up in a very long time.

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yeah , this is an old argument . It is clear that George Lucas never originally planned for Luke and Leia to be siblings . Every piece of early Eu ran with the idea of a romantic connection between Luke and Leia . Splinter of the Minds Eye , which George consulted with Alan Dean foster on , and was intended to be a sequel movie if Star Wars was not as successful , ran with the idea . The Marvel comics of the OT era also did , even for a while after Empire came out . So , it is definitely there . There was no inbreeding because they were never originally intended to be siblings .In 1980 , my friends and I had conversations wondering who Luke would end up with . I thought it would have been Luke …wanted it to be . As an awkward kid , I related more to Luke and it was wish fulfillment for him to get the girl over the , bad boy ,jock ,cocky guy that Han was .If you watch the documentary From Star Wars To Jedi , Lucas talks about how he needed a reason for Luke to snap on Vader when hiding under the stairs and until that moment , he did not realize it was staring him in the face in form of Leia being his sister . So that was when that plot point came along .

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/