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Anyone else think Empire Strikes Back's Special Edition is actually better than the Theatrical Cut? — Page 4

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It’s alright. I still prefer the theatrical cut, but the Special Edition is acceptable for casual viewing. Most of my issues with the changes are more minor stuff, nothing blatantly awful like the other two movies.

ESB Revisited kind of renders the Special Edition irrelevant for me, though. It’s just too good.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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My opinion is the 2020 Special Edition is unwatchable. Too much color was taken out, too much dvnr. The audio is at least better than on Star Wars, but i hate all the changes. The Emperor scene is so bad for that alone i find it not fun to watch. I hate the Revenge of the Sith Emperor being in a movie made in the 1980s. I hate Morrison’s Fett. While i find Disney’s version to be tolerable because he is a good actor, here its like he read lines for Lucas over a telephone.

The changes to the score and pacing especially in the alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival are ruinous to the movie.

Wish there was a semi specialized that had all the original effects, a new multi track mix. A cleaned up picture with good colors. And all the stuff that wasn’t supposed to be there like matte lines and garbage mattes removed. Fix misaligned rotoscope. Those kind of things. Remove all the prequelisms.

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No.

The changes really adds nothing to it, and like the later vader “NOOOOO” in ROTJ ultra super special edition, the removal of the "bring my shuttle line,” cheats the audience of the emotional impact of a scene, and in film those around Vader have an idea of the mood he is in after his duel with Luke. With the new line he almost sounds bored, and ordering a burger from a drive thru.

The line is abrupt, direct and to the point: it tells those around him that he wants his shuttle there NOW, and he’s in no mood for any delays.

“Alert my star destroyer” and everything that follows just adds bloat to the film. Vader has no need to report in, nor does anyone aboard have need to know his comings and goings; Vader will arrive when he sees fit, and the ship will leave when he says so. If you have a problem with that, you should ask Admiral Ozzel how doing things your ways on Vader’s ship goes for you.

Everyone else has of course mentioned the atrocity that is the Luke yell.

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For context: I grew up with the 2004-2011 editions of the OT. Because of this I personally do enjoy seeing the added Wampa and Cloud City scenes. I’ve also seen the original Emperor holograms, and while yes, it does look weird compared to what I’m used to, it is certainly more sinister in my opinion. I have the same feelings towards the new Boba dubs. Don’t hate the newer versions, I’m more used to them, but the originals are quite menacing in a way I also appreciate.

Move along, move along.

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Those of you who are defending the special editions’ existence, let me just say , you’re missing the point. We have no problem with them existing, or even that you prefer them. I for one think it would be interesting to have a choice every now and again. But the problem is that Lucas denied us that choice, and we had to depend on fans like Harmy to restore the old versions. So it’s not a matter of whether or not the special editions should exist or not, as I think most of us would agree that the special editions would be fine as long as they existed alongside the originals.

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[Bluto said:]
6) Luke’s scream. Only used in the 1997 version, and a bizarre addition which was thankfully removed in all future versions. Without this, the 1997 SE would be about neck and neck with the 1980 version for me.
Bluto

Too bad we now have to deal with Vader’s "Noooo"s at the end of ROTJ (as if it weren’t already the most insufferable episode’s SE of them all), i agree that TESB is the best of the SWSEs, the fact alone that an argument could be made (whether someone agrees or not) if it’s better than the original says it all, but still, the added effects recall too much attention, they really stick like sore thumbs.
I’m actually not against the Wampa because, if anything else was left the same, it would be more like a Lucas’ cut instead of a Special Edition, and i’m all for extended cuts in general, unless the movies in question are awful, but this definitely isn’t the case.

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Kyp_Astaar said:

[Bluto said:]
6) Luke’s scream. Only used in the 1997 version, and a bizarre addition which was thankfully removed in all future versions. Without this, the 1997 SE would be about neck and neck with the 1980 version for me.
Bluto

Too bad we now have to deal with Vader’s "Noooo"s at the end of ROTJ (as if it weren’t already the most insufferable episode’s SE of them all), i agree that TESB is the best of the SWSEs, the fact alone that an argument could be made (whether someone agrees or not) if it’s better than the original says it all, but still, the added effects recall too much attention, they really stick like sore thumbs.
I’m actually not against the Wampa because, if anything else was left the same, it would be more like a Lucas’ cut instead of a Special Edition, and i’m all for extended cuts in general, unless the movies in question are awful, but this definitely isn’t the case.

What is this “WE”? Not if you have all official cuts to choose from. Fan edits are in a different category altogether.

I used to have a more definitive answer to this prior to 2009. Since I’m on my journey to get all official versions, I can pick, and choose, which of those versions to watch. 1980 Theatrical Edition, 1997 Special Edition, 2004 DVD Edition, 2006 DVD Edition, 2011 BD Edition, 2019/2020 Disney+/4K&BD Edition. Oh wait, no mention of GOUT? Sounds idiotic to me, mine is easier to follow.
Below is a great comparison between the 1980 Theatrical release and the 1997 Special Edition release.
https://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=2005824

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While the changed shots in the ESB special editions bother me less than the other two films, I still prefer to watch the original version if given the option.

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The Special Edition is generally better than the Theatrical Version for most of the film.
I prefer the Special Edition Cloud City, I love how the visual effects were fixed as well as the music cues.
The new 2004 Emperor is amazing, even if you never saw Star Wars before and are starting from the OT.

Temeura Morrison as Boba Fett makes a lot of sense because he is objectively better at delivering his lines than Jason Wingreen did. And it is now canon that Boba Fett would sound like his father as an adult, as established by The Mandalorian and The Book of Boba Fett.

The new Wampa scene actually heightens the suspense over the original. In the original, you just get faint glimpses of the Wampa and the fate of Luke’s Tauntaun is left up in the air. People already know what the Wampa looks like so there’s no point in hiding it. And it’s actually more suspenseful to show him feasting on the Tauntaun’s carcass, heightening the tension that the Wampa would eat Luke next.

And keep in mind, this is coming from someone who had to track down a GOUT DVD to first experience Star Wars in the Theatrical Versions.

OohTeeDee’s regraded/regrained 2019 Special Edition is my preferred version. It has the best restoration of the film, but with restored grain, and the best overall version of the film. My only complaint would be how Palpatine looks more like how he did in Revenge of the Sith instead of how he looked like in Return of the Jedi. Almost like this was made as test footage to see how Palpatine would look like “scarred and deformed” in Revenge of the Sith. If they made it look more like how he did in Return of the Jedi, I would have no complaints over The Emperor’s New Actor.

That said, the main reason why I think people hate the Special Editions is that George Lucas essentially wanted to erase the Theatrical Versions from existence.
If Lucas (or now, Disney) just released proper restorations of the Theatrical Versions alongside every iteration of the Special Editions the films received, people would be much more forgiving towards the Special Editions.

Exophase

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Temeura Morrison as Boba Fett makes a lot of sense because he is objectively better at delivering his lines than Jason Wingreen did.

Most of your points I’d say are fair, but Jason Wingreen definitely did a better job with his lines. They sound way more menacing and less phoned in when he says them.

But we can’t turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust. And what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.

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I definitely prefer the look of the 1997 35mm prints, as we’ve seen with 4K97_V. The more consistent color timing (which was still respectful to the source material) was an improvement. It sucks that ESB came out in one of the worst years for film stock, when Eastmancolor was your only mainstream option with minimal alternatives (Fujicolor and Agfacolor, IIRC).

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Servii said:

Temeura Morrison as Boba Fett makes a lot of sense because he is objectively better at delivering his lines than Jason Wingreen did.

Most of your points I’d say are fair, but Jason Wingreen definitely did a better job with his lines. They sound way more menacing and less phoned in when he says them.

Definitely.

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Hydra Spectre said:

The new 2004 Emperor is amazing, even if you never saw Star Wars before and are starting from the OT.

Except he looks nothing like he did in ROTJ, upsetting visual continuity. And the altered dialogue is a hackjob.

Temeura Morrison as Boba Fett makes a lot of sense because he is objectively better at delivering his lines than Jason Wingreen did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON4sOlxvtbU

“Mythology is not a lie, mythology is poetry, it is metaphorical. It has been well said that mythology is the penultimate truth — penultimate because the ultimate cannot be put into words. It is beyond words. Beyond images, beyond that bounding rim of the Buddhist Wheel of Becoming. Mythology pitches the mind beyond that rim, to what can be known but not told.”

― Joseph Campbell

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Superweapon VII said:

Except he looks nothing like he did in ROTJ, upsetting visual continuity. And the altered dialogue is a hackjob.

The Adywan version of that scene is still the best. It gets as close to the original dialogue as possible, maintains the original shot list, and has more ROTJ continuity with the appearance of The Emperor.

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Hydra Spectre said:

The new Wampa scene actually heightens the suspense over the original. In the original, you just get faint glimpses of the Wampa and the fate of Luke’s Tauntaun is left up in the air. People already know what the Wampa looks like so there’s no point in hiding it. And it’s actually more suspenseful to show him feasting on the Tauntaun’s carcass, heightening the tension that the Wampa would eat Luke next.

Disagree respectfully. Not showing IMO heightens the tension more because you never know where the Wampa is or when he will show up. Repeatedly cutting back and forth between Luke and the Wampa makes the situation less dire because the Wampa clearly has a face full of food and only shows us the audience that yes Luke is in a dire situation and needs to get out ASAP but the tension is robbed but revealing too much of the Wampa beforehand.

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Recently I was wondering if I might be feeling that way, but I think that’s probably just because the special edition (the 2004 one that is) was the version I first saw as a kid. Because when I actually think about a lot of the changes that were made, I don’t think they were improvements. They’re less intrusive than the changes to the other two movies, but that’s not hard to accomplish. If I had a choice between just those three special editions, is it the special edition that I would sit down and watch? Of course it is, but I still don’t think the changes were really needed.
I thought that I liked the changes to Cloud City, but on a recent rewatch I realized that they said in dialogue that Cloud City is supposed to be a small outpost. It doesn’t look like a small outpost in the special edition. Also, the CGI has really dated and looks out of place. Especially the shots of people standing around listening to Lando talking on the speaker.
The Emperor change in theory makes sense, but the execution is inconsistent with Return of the Jedi since it’s Revenge of the Sith Ian McDiarmid. There was something a little more ominous and mysterious about the original Emperor even though it is a different looking person. Also the dialogue makes much more sense in the original version.
Boba Fett’s voice change I can sort of understand for consistency with Attack of the Clones, but again, I don’t think the execution was great. Plus Jason Wingreen’s voice was perfect for the character. I like Temuera Morrison, but his delivery doesn’t even compare.
The only change I might keep (and this might surprise some people) is the Wampa scene. I remember that scene freaking me out when I first saw it as a kid, so I might keep that in there for nostalgic reasons. Watching it again, it doesn’t look too out of place (at least compared to these other changes), although it is ultimately unnecessary.
The only addition that I would say is an improvement is fixing some of the matte lines on the ships, but I don’t really care all that much about minor details like that. The movie’s over 40 years old, it’s okay for there to be a few technical mistakes here and there.
So overall, I would say the theatrical version is still better.

All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph!

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I agree, the change i truly hate is the voice of boba fett. But they changed it 2004 not '97.
Another special edition change i like is the Victory theme instead of Yub Nub in ROTJ.

And i agree with the quote, people hate the specials, becase it feels like they want to erase the originals.
But they should erase, just let people decide.

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BedeHistory731 said:

I definitely prefer the look of the 1997 35mm prints, as we’ve seen with 4K97_V. The more consistent color timing (which was still respectful to the source material) was an improvement. It sucks that ESB came out in one of the worst years for film stock, when Eastmancolor was your only mainstream option with minimal alternatives (Fujicolor and Agfacolor, IIRC).

I agree on all these points. Pre LPP Eastman prints are terrible. At least with Star Wars you got a LPP reissue and there were IP tech prints made in 77. Maybe there is a reissue print of Empire that just hasn’t surfaced in LPP. But since Technicolor was dead there was no Empire Strikes Back print.

And you would think fading isn’t possible after LPP was introduced but my 70mm film cels for ROTJ say the opposite. At least Team Blu had a show print. As for Empire the 16mm dupe retained its color.

The only stable color 35mm print to show in a theater is the 1997 print.

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Honestly, ESB’s Special Edition wasn’t horrible at all! A lot of the changes were actually good, such as actually seeing the Wampa creature, changing the walls in Cloud City, and getting Ian McDiarmid to portray the emperor. Overall, ESB was the only movie who’s Special Edition changes were good.

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Chillye said:

Honestly, ESB’s Special Edition wasn’t horrible at all! A lot of the changes were actually good, such as actually seeing the Wampa creature, changing the walls in Cloud City, and getting Ian McDiarmid to portray the emperor. Overall, ESB was the only movie who’s Special Edition changes were good.

I actually like the new Victory Celebration in Return of the Jedi.
And also, that one scene in Star Wars where Han chases down Stormtroopers in a hallway.
The original version has a dead-end, but the Special Edition, where he comes across an entire docking bay full of Stormtroopers is much more hilarious. Both scenes were great, but the Special Edition is even better for that scene.

Star Wars also has that restored Biggs scene which is really nice.

I also like some of the less-noticeable fixed VFX. Such as that one matte painting near the end of Star Wars showing the Rebel Army. The matte painting effect looked really off in the original. But the Special Edition fixes that by digitally compositing in more realistic people (not sure if they were live actors or CGI) that fit in better than the original matte painting.
The spiced up CGI shots in the Battle of Yavin were also really cool and more dynamic.
The new recomposites and colour grading made for the 1997 release are also much better. The '97 colours are the best the films ever looked. The 2004/2011 colour grading, however, was awful. The 2019 version is much better, but not as good as the 1997 colours.

All in all, each version has their own pros and cons. But I mostly just stick with the original versions to make things simpler. That or the 1997 print.

Exophase