Amadeus - Laserdisc+DVD Audio Tracks for 4K (formerly Theatrical Cut Restoration) — Page 36

eh at least they’re not whacking it to jim cameron’s color grading

The thread on Blu-ray.com is indicating the audio mix on the new 4K is the original mix unwound into 5.0 in a 5.1 container, no dedicated LFE channel and (mostly) mono surrounds. That’s great news, but I’ll still create syncs of the various LD and DVD mixes for completionist’s sake.

I also acquired copies of the old Laserdisc bonus features. It’s amusing hearing Forman and Shaffer explain why it was a good idea to remove the scenes that eventually became part of the “Director’s Cut”. Shaffer says that if Salieri was as virtuous as he claimed to be, then he would have not have done those humiliating things to innocent Constanze. Yeah, exactly.

But of course, fast forward to 2000, it was the DVD director’s cut craze, and both of them conveniently changed their tune and WB edited out critical mentions of the extended cut scenes.

Props to Paul Saentz, nephew of Saul, for spearheading the restoration effort of the original theatrical cut. Without him, I doubt this occurs.

jimbotron235 said:

The thread on Blu-ray.com is indicating the audio mix on the new 4K is the original mix unwound into 5.0 in a 5.1 container, no dedicated LFE channel and (mostly) mono surrounds. That’s great news, but I’ll still create syncs of the various LD and DVD mixes for completionist’s sake.

I also acquired copies of the old Laserdisc bonus features. It’s amusing hearing Forman and Shaffer explain why it was a good idea to remove the scenes that eventually became part of the “Director’s Cut”. Shaffer says that if Salieri was as virtuous as he claimed to be, then he would have not have done those humiliating things to innocent Constanze. Yeah, exactly.

But of course, fast forward to 2000, it was the DVD director’s cut craze, and both of them conveniently changed their tune and WB edited out critical mentions of the extended cut scenes.

Props to Paul Saentz, nephew of Saul, for spearheading the restoration effort of the original theatrical cut. Without him, I doubt this occurs.

Interesting! I didn’t know there was any direct comments from them about the extra scenes, let alone explicitly negative ones. It’s nice to know their thoughts about them pretty much line up with mine (and most other fans). Did they mention anything about pacing?
I’ve never seen the bonus features on the LD. I’d love to check them out if you’ve uploaded them anywhere.

Check your PMs!

If anyone wants a copy of the old Laserdisc documentary and original commentary track, send me a PM.

The documentary is fascinating in that while they’re discussing the Constanze scene, it shows a rough cut of said scene, which is noticeably different from the final version in the Director’s Cut. In the rough cut, the nudity is mostly absent, with more closeups of a shocked Salieri and servant, and Constanze now curses Salieri out before chucking the candleholder. I don’t know if the change in shots was for censorship reasons since it’s technically a physical release of a PG movie, or if they didn’t really intend to show her topless in the original cut.

jimbotron235, I’ll be eternally grateful for your work on this edit. Now that the 4k HDR version is available I need to convert it to 1080p SDR for my projector as I don’t believe there is a SDR version available for this release - it certainly doesn’t come on Blu-ray.

I’ve been trying ffmpeg to do automatic HDR to SDR conversion with the following, seems to work well:

ffmpeg -init_hw_device vulkan -i INPUT -map 0✌️0 -map_metadata -1 -vf libplacebo=upscaler=spline36:downscaler=spline36:w=1920:h=-1:peak_detect=true:tonemapping=spline:gamut_mode=perceptual:colorspace=bt709:color_trc=bt709:color_primaries=bt709:range=limited:dithering=blue:format=yuv420p -c:v libx264 -preset slow -crf 18 OUTPUT.mkv

Any tips to improve this?

splodge said:

jimbotron235, I’ll be eternally grateful for your work on this edit. Now that the 4k HDR version is available I need to convert it to 1080p SDR for my projector as I don’t believe there is a SDR version available for this release - it certainly doesn’t come on Blu-ray.

I’ve been trying ffmpeg to do automatic HDR to SDR conversion with the following, seems to work well:

ffmpeg -init_hw_device vulkan -i INPUT -map 0✌️0 -map_metadata -1 -vf libplacebo=upscaler=spline36:downscaler=spline36:w=1920:h=-1:peak_detect=true:tonemapping=spline:gamut_mode=perceptual:colorspace=bt709:color_trc=bt709:color_primaries=bt709:range=limited:dithering=blue:format=yuv420p -c:v libx264 -preset slow -crf 18 OUTPUT.mkv

Any tips to improve this?

Any sample screenshots? I have not had good results from using ffmpeg or Handbrake for HDR-SDR conversion, but I did think RipBot264 did a good job. The issue I saw was color banding on reds, which only RipBot was able to handle properly.

Images here from my SDR conversion

https://imgur.com/a/H0sXDpv

splodge said:

Images here from my SDR conversion

https://imgur.com/a/H0sXDpv

Looks pretty good! Funny there’s no standard Blu-ray for this yet, I assume that will come in the future.

oojason said:
You delivered a pretty awesome project yourself, jimbotron235 - and brought a lot of happiness and enjoyment to fans who wished to experience a quality Theatrical Cut preservation of Amadeus.

All credit and kudos to you - and many thanks for all your hard work on this. 👍
 

Much appreciated.

When it comes to this movie, nothing makes me happier than being able to bury my edit! The Saul Zaentz Company delivered beyond my expectations with the restoration.

Nice to read this here. I never was much interested in this, because I made my own Theatrical cut myself long ago, I think at quite the same time when this started here. Now my interest has become re-newed, because I finally got a German soundtrack without extreme flutter sourced of an optical track of a 35mm copy, which is not of the best quality, but really a gift, because each and every source I inspected had this extreme flutter, best heard short before the end at the final chord of the Requiem (A----men). Simply horrible.
Also English and other soundtracks have some flutter, but not as bad as the German one. I even tried to correct it in small parts with Capstan, but this does work very bad when it comes to vocals - no chance. I always hoped for some A.I. solutions, but up to now there is none for de-flutter that works here, at least I don’t know it.

Ok, so now I got this 4k release, BUT:
The colors are as bad as the most HDR releases of the last years: Brownish, (incorrigible) much too much yellow and a bit too much green, much too less blue. Even when you put in all skills in tone mapping, and even when you watch the 4k itself - The BluRay releases are far better!
There even are scenes that are much too bright, and much too less contrast.

The bit of grain the 4k release has got more than the HD releases is of no use… The HD releases (at least the ones I know) are sharp on the point!
An A. I. 4k-upscale of the HD-source would be of even less use… But this people do not want to understand, so of littlest use is to even discuss this point.

What I want to say: I highly recommend to keep this nice project up! Because the picture is far better than this 4k master, and also the efforts about the sound tracks are a wonderful contribution!
What people say, who know absolutely nothing, is not very important… 😉

By the way: Could you send me the link for the documentary? I would love to see it!

FrankB said:
Ok, so now I got this 4k release, BUT:
The colors are as bad as the most HDR releases of the last years: Brownish, (incorrigible) much too much yellow and a bit too much green, much too less blue. Even when you put in all skills in tone mapping, and even when you watch the 4k itself - The BluRay releases are far better!
There even are scenes that are much too bright, and much too less contrast.

The bit of grain the 4k release has got more than the HD releases is of no use… The HD releases (at least the ones I know) are sharp on the point!
An A. I. 4k-upscale of the HD-source would be of even less use… But this people do not want to understand, so of littlest use is to even discuss this point.

I have to disagree with you on that one. The 2000 master has a dull, digital-looking white balance. What you call as “too yellow” on the remaster, I counter with “too pink/magenta” on the Blu-ray.

I will call a spade a spade if it’s called for. I’m highly critical of ugly remasters when they happen. Batman 1989 for example looks atrocious. James Cameron and David Fincher should be banned from ever working on their catalog again, IMO. But in the case of Amadeus, supervised by Paul Zaentz who really cared to make this version exist again, I think they nailed it.

Any appearance of superior sharpness of the 2000 master is a result of artificial sharpening. Just look at the slight halo around the mother-in-law’s headdress compared to the remaster. Also note the blown out contrast on the highlights:

https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=424&y=208&d1=4791&d2=19001&s1=44634&s2=225179&l=0&i=2&go=1

FrankB said:
What I want to say: I highly recommend to keep this nice project up! Because the picture is far better than this 4k master, and also the efforts about the sound tracks are a wonderful contribution!
What people say, who know absolutely nothing, is not very important… 😉

While I appreciate the kind words, I cannot in good conscience keep it available. The goal was to reproduce something that didn’t exist, and now it does.

The audio work is not lost. I am nearly done re-syncing all of the same audio tracks from my V3 release for the new 4K, so the project will still live on in some way.

jimbotron235 said:

I have to disagree with you on that one. The 2000 master has a dull, digital-looking white balance. What you call as “too yellow” on the remaster, I counter with “too pink/magenta” on the Blu-ray.
…
But in the case of Amadeus, supervised by Paul Zaentz who really cared to make this version exist again, I think they nailed it.

As I said: In terms of colors, I am of completely different opinion. I am just working on nearing the 4k colors to something neutral, in direction to my HD master. Too much red/pink/magenta? No. The opposite, and well seen in your example. Sorry, but here I have to stay with my sight.

Any appearance of superior sharpness of the 2000 master is a result of artificial sharpening. Just look at the slight halo around the mother-in-law’s headdress compared to the remaster. Also note the blown out contrast on the highlights:

https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=424&y=208&d1=4791&d2=19001&s1=44634&s2=225179&l=0&i=2&go=1

I am also of complete different opinion here. HD Colors are by far better. The typical 4k greenish-brownish look really hurts my eyes. The HD highlights are a bit too much, but in this you cannot compare SDR and HDR. The highlights in the 4k master are not overdone, so that more details kept alive, that’s right, but therefore you have much too low contrast in the picture. You often have to pay this price (when you don’t overdo). In HDR you can keep every highlight, that’s one of the advantages.
There is a certain amount of haloing in the HD master, that’s right. If this is done by sharpening it was a very “cheap” sharpening, but when the master is from 2000 it is throughout possible.

Ultimately, opinions on that are all subjective. I think the new version looks gorgeous, and you are entitled to your opinion on the previous version. If we’re both happy, then great.

FrankB said:

Nice to read this here. I never was much interested in this, because I made my own Theatrical cut myself long ago, I think at quite the same time when this started here.

I’d like to know more. How did you go about work on that?

jimbotron235 said:

Ultimately, opinions on that are all subjective.

I don’t agree 100%. There are references like 35mm copies and technical things, but you are right, when you say that coloring has a lot of subjectiveness. So… about 72.4%…

I think the new version looks gorgeous, and you are entitled to your opinion on the previous version. If we’re both happy, then great.

Yes. That’s right.

I’d like to know more. How did you go about work on that?

The German dub of the Theatrical version is really great! In my opinion (and of many others) the best is the German voice of Salieri, spoken by Gottfried Kramer. Though it’s not extremely similar to M. A., it is absolutely gorgeous with its underlying sarcasm. For the director’s cut there were some reasons to make a complete new dubbing in 2002. One of it was the sad fact that Gottfried Kramer had passed away in 1994.
He was replaced by Joachim Höppner, who also spoke Gandalf in the German dubs. A nice and friendly, slightly wise voice, but much too nice for Salieri.
Also some of the other voices would have sounded too old to fill the new scenes. Tom Hulce’s voice is dubbed by the same speaker. He still sounds quite funny, when “laughing”, but not that powerful and “anarchical” as in the first dub.

So I decided early to take the HD-director’s cut, take most of the scenes of the old dub, and the rest of the new one. Which is not that easy, as you well know, because there are lots of small differences, which make lots of cuts and repairung of these necessary. I remember the scene with burning wood in a fireplace with a lot of talking of Salierei in the background as one of the hardest, although you even don’t see the actor speaking - I don’t know if the English version was similar hard to adapt here? Also one scene when Mozart comes home and meets his father in the staircase I remember as hard to adapt. Some in the director’s cut missing or shortened scenes (3? I don’t remember, maybe I took also the staircase scene?) I took from the German Theatrical-DVD after careful upscaling (although I am no friend of this still), just like you. Also the Orion intro - but here you took a better one. But you wanted to make a “final release”, I did it just for my personal use. 😃

Later I realised, that these additional scenes disturbed me - first maybe because of the new voices, but there was something else. After having watched the movie some times I decided to cut the additional scenes completely, and the result was much better. The cutting was easy, because the picture was already cut after the German dub of the theatrical version, I mainly just had to cut the new scenes.
Today I only watch the movie in its original (but German) version, and all my friends do the same.

I’ve never thought about giving the dubs a try. If there’s one thing about the movie I don’t like - it’s the translation of the opera songs into English, such as the Queen of the Night aria, Papageno, etc. The movie does this inconsistently, sometimes they’re original like Marriage of Figaro, and others they’re in English. I assume the dubs also translate the songs, or in the case of The Magic Flute, restore them back to German?

FrankB said:

I remember the scene with burning wood in a fireplace with a lot of talking of Salierei in the background as one of the hardest, although you even don’t see the actor speaking - I don’t know if the English version was similar hard to adapt here? Also one scene when Mozart comes home and meets his father in the staircase I remember as hard to adapt. Some in the director’s cut missing or shortened scenes (3? I don’t remember, maybe I took also the staircase scene?)

Oh yes, those segments were difficult to correct, because of the missing frames or missing shots. In the case of Salieri lifting off the cross and putting it into the fire, it’s actually an alternate take with slightly different timing. The worst part of the Director’s Cut was all the 1-2 frame chops off so many shots. That made the audio syncing a massive job to pull off.

By the way: For Tonemapping purposes I highly recommend to use https://www.videohelp.com/software/DGDecNV .
libplacebo is quite popular at the moment, but in results not much better than other standard conversions.
You can actively adapt parameters while watching what happens, and take the best parameters in to Avisynth. To me by far the best way. Maybe all scrreenshots I saw here went through libplacebo, then I understand, what happened.

Edit: Our postings crossed…

Unfortunately the German dub also has the “original” English opera texts. Especially the Zauberflöte-papageno aria I know quite well (a good friend sang it many years ago) and the English text is quite horror to me. I second this.

Thanks for the link, I’ll check that program out.

Bummer on the arias. Restoring the original German would have really easy in those cases.

You mean for the dub? Yes, maybe. I wonder why they didn’t use Italian and German in the first place? Was that maybe a must from the production company?

jimbotron235 said:

oojason said:
You delivered a pretty awesome project yourself, jimbotron235 - and brought a lot of happiness and enjoyment to fans who wished to experience a quality Theatrical Cut preservation of Amadeus.

All credit and kudos to you - and many thanks for all your hard work on this. 👍
 

Much appreciated.

When it comes to this movie, nothing makes me happier than being able to bury my edit! The Saul Zaentz Company delivered beyond my expectations with the restoration.

Glad you’re able to bury your edit after years of work. Time to preserve all the bonus features and audio tracks not on the 4K BD.

Done and done. Syncs of the original Laserdisc and DVD tracks are now available, including the Laserdisc documentary The Last Laugh. PM me for links.