All Things Star Trek — Page 36

bkev said:

Warbler said:

bkev said:

Jetrell Fo said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Oh, and IMO, DS9 didn't fuck up Star Trek. If anything, it rectified some of the damage that TNG had done and restored some of the fun to the ST Universe that had been lacking in it since the TOS films had come to an end.

I agree with you 100% on this.  DS9 gave Star Trek it's teeth back.

 Also agreed.  DS9 took a few seasons to find its groove -- if Sisko's not bald, you're probably watching the wrong episode -- but man did it get good.  I especially liked the moral ambiguities of the Federation in this series.  showing that we're not perfect is always important in Trek, even if it's at the cost of some of the Utopian imagery.

 You mean the Utopian imagery that was Roddenberry original premise for Star Trek?  That humanity had improved and advanced? 

 In a sense, yes.  The original Trek epitomizes Space Age optimism as presented in pop culture and, I think, as a culture we have become too world wise - or cynical, take your pick - to accept that.  An ambiguous storyline is more compelling than B-Movie television.  DrCrow's thoughts on Garak point to why I enjoy DS9 as a whole and he said it well enough I don't need to.

In terms of TOS being a utopia, the only real problem I have with that universe is   the blatant sexism.  

 Yeah I love TOS like a child and I didn't pick up on it as a kid but rewatching the episodes now some are hard to get through without feeling a little ill.  There are episodes where Kirk pretty much forces himself on woman and yet they fall in love with him because he was just that good at sex????  So rape is okay as long as you are good at it,I guess.

Notice that in the movies they didn't have Kirk do any of that stuff because times had already changed enough for that to not appeal to movie goers in the 1980s.

Give me DS9's shades of gray over the hero committing rape and not a word being said about it any day of the week.

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 Oh don't get me wrong it's only a few times and again i love the show but it only takes once for me to feel ill.  Sorry maybe I am reading too much into it but that sort of thing has always made me feel a little sick.

Still there are plenty of great episodes where that doesn't happen,I am just saying I know some people who consider TOS to be the low point of the franchise and will not watch it for that reason and while you and I may think they are being short sighted I would be lying if I said I don't understand how they feel.

Still any show that produced Balance of Terror is okay in my book.

As someone who was a Star Trek fan and not a B5 fan in the 90s I have to say I think I may know why B5 fans and Star Trek fans don't get along and part of it may be our fault.  That is not to say that there are not B5 fans who are not jerks but I had on e friend when I was a kid who was a B5 fan and the rest were Star Trek fans and remembering how we used to treat him does not make me proud. heck years later when I went online for the first time i remember how myself and other Star Trek fans used to troll B5 message boards and make really personal attacks against JMS and some of the actors.  I remember that we used to mock everything about B5,from the CGI,to the actors,and we even used to accuse B5 of stealing all their ideas from Star trek. Heck i remember a petition being started to try and get production stopped on the B5 computer game(Sadly the game was never released for other reasons)on the grounds that if it had space ship in it and an alliance of planets then it was ripped off of Star Trek. I am ashamed to say I signed that one.

Of course years latter I learned about how Paramount was the first place JMS pitched B5 and how he showed them the series bible and some of his early ideas ended up in Star Trek movies and episodes after they turned him down. Now has he stirred the pot since,sure. Is it the fault of Star Trek fans that the studio did that? No. Still I think that caused him and the fans to become very defensive and I would be lying if I said I didn't understand why. I think the fans got tired of always having to defend their favorite show so they started going on the attack to try and drive Star Trek fans away,and soon you couldn't be a fan of both shows.  That is a shame because now that I have seen both shows years latter I can say they are nothing alike and there is room in my heart for both shows.

As for why Star Trek fans did it?  I can only say that I think we were all scared. We were used to Star Trek being top dog and getting all the praise and then all of the sudden out of nowhere this little upstart show came that was enough like Star Trek that it was in directly competing in Star Tek's main medium. Yeah we had had Star Wars before but that was a one hundred percent different type of story and it was movies and Star Trek was on TV,by the time Star Trek got really popular in movie theaters Star Wars was onto it's last movie so we didn't really have to worry about Star Wars stealing anything from Star trek.  Then all of the sudden this new show with a strong fan base and lots of buzz from critics came along on TV,while Star Trek was airing!  It seemed like there was a chance it could beat Star Trek and if Star Trek was beat would that mean the end of the franchise?!  I think a lot of us assumed the worst without ever seeing more then a picture of a Centuria and without watching an episode of the show we decided that this show was a cheap silly knock off that was trying to force Star Trek off of the air and when the writer said some negative things about Star Trek that just confirmed it. Star Trek always had a strong fan base that defended the show and we sprung into action to take down the imposter and save Star Trek. It seems silly now but as I recall that is how I am a lot of others felt and in trying to save star trek we destroyed any chance of the two fan bases getting along.

Were there faults on both sides? Yes there sure were I knew some B5 fans online who could be very mean.  Still as a Star Trek fan i have to say myself and others bare a large portion of blame for creating a rift that sadly exists to this day.

SilverWook said:

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

 Really so that bit in Mirror Mirror where he grabs that woman and she was trying to break lose from his grip,that doesn't count?

I guess no really means yes.

Also there were the insanely short miniskirts the woman were force to where while the men got pants and the fact that the show almost always played sexy jazz music whenever a woman was on screen. That's a bit cringe worthy in this day and age I have to say. I am pretty sure most people agree because as I said that character trait was the one thing they didn't bring back in the movies,so I think by the time the 80s rolled around they knew better then to try and pull that off.

DrCrowTStarwars said:
I am just saying I know some people who consider TOS to be the low point of the franchise and will not watch it for that reason .

 I find that rather strange considering that without TOS, there are no movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise. 

bkev said:

In terms of TOS being a utopia, the only real problem I have with that universe is   the blatant sexism.  

 unfortunately, TOS is a product of its time, the 1960's.   Sexism was unfortunately in then.   However Roddenbery did try to be more progessive.  He orginally wanted the 1st officer to be a woman.  He tried that in The Cage, but it didn't sell.

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times,

 he never raped anyone. 

DrCrowTStarwars said:

SilverWook said:

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

 Really so that bit in Mirror Mirror where he grabs that woman and she was trying to break lose from his grip,that doesn't count?

I guess no really means yes.

 He didn't rape her.

If the stuff Kirk did bothers you guys that much, I guess you must really hate the classic Bond movies. 

SilverWook said:The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three.

He only definitely did it in The Paradise Syndrome, the other times were just implied.   

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

SilverWook said:

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

 Really so that bit in Mirror Mirror where he grabs that woman and she was trying to break lose from his grip,that doesn't count?

I guess no really means yes.

 He didn't rape her.

If the stuff Kirk did bothers you guys that much, I guess you must really hate the classic Bond movies. 

 Okay I am sorry. Nothing in TOs is dated and anyone who doesn't think every second of the show is perfect and who is uncomfortable with anything on the show is a moron and and should be burned alive in the town square.

I am sorry I know that now adays grabbing a woman and not letting go isn't seen as rape. i guess I was just raised wrong and I am sorry for that. I admit I am the worst person who ever lived because i dared to question the actions of Captain kirk. i will now go and kill myself because I am clearly an evil monster who has no right to live.  Can we move on.

Look I know someone who was raped and the guy who did it never got into any trouble because he used the Kirk argument,so excuse me if I am not ready to let him off of the hook as easily as the rest of you. If you have the grab the woman and she tries to break free that is rape and being undercover is no excuse. I'm sorry I know that in the modern world it is wrong to be bothered by things like rape but it still bothers me. Sorry I know that makes me an awful person but it just does and I have tried to change but I have not been able to yet.

This is why I hate Star trek fandom. It's all a bunch of worship and different views are never welcome.  All you are ever allowed to say is Kirk is great and Roddenbury is god and created the universe. Everyone always has to walk in lockstep and never question anything.  For a show that is supposed to be about love and free thinking,the fans are some of the most closed minded and hateful people I have ever met.

I am done with this thread I thought maybe it would be different then the Star Trek sites I was a member of in the past seeing as it is on a Star Wars site but it is just more of the same.  I will never get along with other Star Trek fans so I am done trying.

DrCrowTStarwars said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Sadako said:

The nonsense biology I can buy--it's the 24th century, and based on a remark made in TNG 02x20, it seems that someone has developed a gene splicing doohickey for interspecies couples, and it's existence is apparently well-known and often used, given the existence of B'Elanna, K'Ehleyr, Spock, and Troi

That doesn't explain interspecies offspring in situations where such technology simply wasn't available (Worf's human brother having a child with some rubber forehead chick on a primitive planet, for example).

I simply don't know why the writers didn't simply make most of the human and rubber forehead aliens genetic offshoots of humanity. Going by TOS, we already know aliens had transplanted humans to other worlds from Earth long before humans developed interstellar travel; it's well within the realm of possibility that some of these transplanted populations could have evolved/been modified into new species and subspecies over the centuries/millennia.

Jeez ... now I'm just serving to remind myself of why I dislike TNG so much. Why did the writers of the show have to bungle almost every aspect of the ST Universe in such a horrible, slipshod manner?

 That sounds like how they explained every planet having humans or human like aliens on it in SG1.

Kind of. While humans on other worlds in the SG1verse were transplanted there from Earth, human life on Earth was originally seeded there by the Ancients, which is pretty much the same stupid explanation TNG gave for all the human and rubber forehead alien races running around in the ST Universe.

Oy, now I want to bitch about SG-1 (I've got far more grievances with it than I have for TNG).

Warbler said:

From our conversation in the "If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place" Thread

DuracellEnergizer said:

Let's see ... how did TNG fuck things up ...

In no particular order:

All the pseudoscientific technobabble. I don't remember TOS ever resorting to this crap to any significant degree.

I think they was some techobabble in TOS

There was some technobabble in TOS, but not much. Certainly not to the degree that it was in TNG.  

 

The stupid "The Federation is a 110% perfect, atheist utopia that never does anything wrong and never uses money" crap.

It was kind of a utopia in TOS and in TNG, they Admirals and other Captians making mistakes.

The Federation of TOS was a better place than the modern world, but it was never presented as perfect, which TNG tried to do.

 

Making it so that there is never any major conflict between the main characters of the show. Everyone just always gets along like one big, boring family from some '50s-'80s sitcom.

They got along mostly in TOS. Well ok, Spoke and Mccoy fought alot.

That's still more than what was shown on TNG.

 

The overuse of human and rubber forehead aliens.

I thought the make jobs were pretty good, especially compared to TOS

TOS had an excuse for less-than-stellar alien designs -- truly complex designs just couldn't have been done on a TV series' budget in the '60s.

TNG has no such excuse beyond laziness and/or a lack of vision among the showrunners.

 

Turning the Klingons into stupid, dirty, one-note brutes.

?

You must have been watching a different set of Klingons than I was watching. The Klingons I was watching were turned from the dirth one-note brutes they had been in TOS to honor bound warriors in TNG.

Let's see ... the Klingons in TNG didn't bathe, didn't brush their teeth, ate like animals ... I don't recall the Klingons in TOS ever acting like this.

Oh, and the "honour bound warriors" thing is exactly why I call them "one-note". Honour this, Kahless that -- blah, blah, blah. In the end, all the TNG+ Klingons were were bloodthirsty cannon fodder without any depth or diversity.

 

Never allowing the interesting characters like Data to ever significantly grow and develop.

name me one character that developed in TOS?

Yes, you're right in this regard -- there wasn't much character development in TOS, and that remains one of the worst flaws of the show. But at least the TOS movies got to developing some of the main characters.

TNG, on the other hand, never did anything considerable with its characters, even after moving to the big screen. Well, except for making Picard a silly action hero and turning Data into a complete joke.

 

Oh, and IMO, DS9 didn't fuck up Star Trek.

what about the war?

I liked the war. It brought something new to the table and breathed fresh life into a franchise that was basically coasting on fumes.

Of course, Jadzia married Worf and eventually died, which I hated, and DS9 continued to perpetuate the annoying technobabble and stupid Klingons, so the series was far from perfect.

DrCrowTStarwars said:

This is why I hate Star trek fandom. It's all a bunch of worship and different views are never welcome.  All you are ever allowed to say is Kirk is great and Roddenbury is god and created the universe. Everyone always has to walk in lockstep and never question anything.  For a show that is supposed to be about love and free thinking,the fans are some of the most closed minded and hateful people I have ever met.

To be honest, I think Kirk is just okay (Sisko is far better) and that Roddenberry was just another conceited, revisionist hack like Lucas.

Well the person I know who was raped was a kid when it happened and this was back in the 60s and the guy argued that while he had to grab her she didn't fight back hard enough so she must have wanted it. Her parents and the police bought that story so it was case closed. Look I am sorry I am not saying all Star Trek is bad but I just can't watch those scenes with Kirk without feeling ill. Sorry if I over reacted but I just don't do well with the type of sexism that was pretty much mainstream in the 1960s.

In my head I guess I know I should just get over it but I can't watch those scenes without thinking too much about them. Sorry.

OK a couple of random comments to all the crap from the last 2 pages :

- Kirk NEVER raped an alien/robot chick. It never even got CLOSE to a rape.  I have no idea which show were you watching but it wasn't Star Trek

- what's wrong with women in miniskirts? I never had a problem with them. The audiences never had a problem with them. Even the actresses never had a problem with them! (Except the woman who played Gary Seven's assistant, she was the only one who ever complained). Is this what America has become in the last 50 years? A tyranny of political correctness?

- TNG aliens - I have never ever seen so realistically looking aliens as in TNG/DS9/VOY. Westmore's team did an amazing job. Unfortunately they started to do CG aliens in Voyager and later Enterprise, they look horrible. I'm also really glad they used humanoids, it's the most probable way how aliens would look like.

- no internal conflict on TNG - it's actually a GOOD thing. That's the reason why millions of people all over the planet LOVE the show. BECAUSE the main characters are friends, and the conflict always comes from the outside. It also adds a further element of reality. If you're away in space for 10 years you simply MUST like the people you meet on a daily basis. Otherwise you'd get crazy.

- Babylon 5 - I hate the look of the show. The colors, the lightning ... why is everything so blue? The makeup is really lame, why are centauri men just fat guys with weird punk hair and all their females are skinheads? At least G'Kar's makeup looks interesting. And the CGI looks HORRIBLE. It looked HORRIBLE by 90's standards, and it looks even worse by today's standards. However I LOVE the show. The characters are highly likable, the stories are great, I love the complexity of the show...