Alien/Aliens Color Regrade (a WIP) — Page 7

BDgeek said:

Hi PDB, 

congratulations on your work here, the results are looking great!

I can't wait to watch Alien with the propper color timing and the LD audio.

Thanks BDgeek. I appreciate it. Myself, I'm reluctant to call it proper color timing. I believe the BD is all wrong and I'm convinced the LD is a lot closer to a 35mm print based on what I've seen and know but without a proper 35mm print, we'll never know. So I just consider this a regrade to the '95 LD for now in the absence of better evidence pro or con.

CircularPastrysaid:

PDBsaid:

The problem with Aliens is that I still haven't decide what to grade it against: the Pan and Scan LD, the THX LD, the DVD, the old HDTV master, the 35mm frames I found, etc

First off, great work! I cannot wait to see the finished project!

Now for the input, I don't know if I'm alone here but I'd prefer to see sequels more consistent with regard to filmography. Making Aliens and even any future projects look more true to the work you've done here than it may have to one of it's original releases. I'm not saying aim to be identical, but with a much closer feel than many sequels often have. More of an organic evolution than just simple transition if that makes sense.

I like the idea but problem is the Alien series was directed by a lot of auteurs who had very specific idea about what their films should look like and are not necessarily compatible. Hell most of them keep changing their minds about what colors their films should look like. My goal as always to get close to what a 35mm print would look like for each film. Have I done that with Alien? Don't know, hopefully I have. Will I do that with Aliens, still trying to figure that out. But you present a fun idea, it might be a fun experiment for later.

Turisu said:

PDB said:

The problem with Aliens is that I still haven't decide what to grade it against: the Pan and Scan LD, the THX LD, the DVD, the old HDTV master, the 35mm frames I found, etc

I had no idea that all the different home video releases of Aliens had significantly different colour timing. It would be great to see some comparisons if you have time.

Also, have you had any thoughts about maybe restoring the hole under Bishop in the loading bay floor Harmy-style? ;)

A great example of this is Jonno's rundown of Ash's decapitated head a couple of pages back. Each home video master is different in that and in most cases. For Aliens I knocked this together quickly:

35mm Trailer/1995 THX LD/DVD/BD

As you can see no version is perfect, they all have issues. (I do need to re-capture my LD to see if I can get a little better colors)

Funny you mentioned that. I am no Harmy by any stretch of the imagination (no way I can do rotoscoping) but I do have a few old HDTV Aliens masters that I was going to try and substitute the frames back into the film. That way I can put the hole back in and the scratches on the window.

StarThoughts said:

I hope you settle on doing the TV cut of Aliens, even if it is as a supplement to the theatrical. All the advantages of the longer version without most of the pitfalls.

I believe I'm going to Theatrical first. That's because of some specific reasons. But the TV cut is near and dear to my heart. It was my first exposure to Aliens so I will definitely work on that too. I like that cut so much better then the extended cut since it ditches the Hadley's Hope scenes. Those scenes remove a lot of tension and mystery from the story and changes the narrative focus away from Ripley. Besides they are not needed since you can infer what happened pretty easily. 

Buster D said:

PDB said:

 Thanks Buster D. Its sad no one make quality anymore. Does that only apply to Verbantim's write once or their re-writables also?

 It looks like there's a few reports on Amazon JP of Verbatim BD-REs becoming bad after the 2nd write or after 6 months, for both their 25GB and 50GB BD-REs.  The most recent BD-REs I've personally used are 25GB ones from TDK since they were cheap and had mostly good reviews.  But BD-REs in general are kinda unreliable in the long run, I think.

2 writes is pathetic. I asked because I wanted to try to burn a couple of test discs but sounds like maybe I should bite the bullet and go with a bunch of BD-Rs instead. Thanks again Buster D for the recommendations.

bigrob said:

This is quite possibly the most exciting project i'm fully pumped for. Being such a huge fan of the Alien franchise, I really cannot wait to see the work that went into this and finally hear the 70mm audio in 5.1 :)

Hopefully you will like it. The old 70mm is great, just remember its not the be all, end all for soundtracks (it is 70s era work)

alexpeden2000 said:

Id definitely go for the dvd/HDTV colours for Aliens over the LD. Cameron's films have always had a cold, blue look to them and the LD seems totally different

 I agree up to a certain point and you are right about Cameron and blue but the LD has a lot more blue then the DVD. Especially for the surface of LV-426 and in the atmosphere reactor. Probably too much. My personal preference is the 35mm frames from the trailer. Those look great, just not enough to color grade an entire movie off of. Barring that, I prefer the LD and pull back the saturation and up the brightness to look like the 35mm. The 35mm is nicely saturated and the DVD and BD lack that. They both have super pale caucasian skin tones which I don't believe Aliens had. 

I'm not sure if the 35mm trailer exactly match the release print grading. To point to another Cameron example, the original trailers for Terminator 2 have ungraded nighttime footage with natural skin tones, while the clips on the Siskel and Ebert review, the YouTube 35mm screening clip, and a few film frames I've seen, all seem to show that the theatrical prints had those pumped-up blues we know from all the home releases.

That said, teal existed in the 80s. I've seen an original 35mm of Streets of Fire that has a very similar palette to that Aliens 35mm trailer. The Terminator theatrical trailer (which I've seen on two separate occasions) also has a similar color scheme. The problem is that the color balancing done in the digital realm works completely differently from the original photochemical timing. Even if the general color scheme looks similar, the balance of those colors in the digital realm, and the way certain colors can be completely timed out of the image, were impossible when the films were originally made/released. You just couldn't push everything towards teal/green and drop all blue out of the image - there was ALWAYS blue in the color timing back in the 80s.

That said, it also wouldn't surprise me if the '95 LD was somehow adjusted (Photochemically? After transfer?) to pump up the blues. Those deep, sometimes almost indigo blues remind me more of the 90s than the 80s (reminds me of Jurassic Park, Independence Day, and of course T2). Was that LD the theatrical cut, or the Special Edition?

What does the color on the extended LD look like?

Turisu said:

Thanks for those comparison pics. So interesting how they differ.

I agree that the 35mm shots look best. It's amazing how close the BD comes to them in a couple of those pics, apart from the general lack of saturation and the blues being more pushed towards green. I really thought the tealified BD would be a radical departure from how the original print looked but, going by these 35mm sources, perhaps it's not as far out as people assume.

The really problem with the Aliens BD (outside of the grain) is the blanket green tint. Those particular scenes that don't have the strong green tint actually look pretty good. 

Turisu said:

PDB said:

Funny you mentioned that. I am no Harmy by any stretch of the imagination (no way I can do rotoscoping) but I do have a few old HDTV Aliens masters that I was going to try and substitute the frames back into the film. That way I can put the hole back in and the scratches on the window.

 

It's widely considered that the BD transfer of Aliens had fake grain applied to enhance the perception of detail. So with the proper color correction and a similar fake grain plate, I'll bet the HDTV frames would blend almost seamlessly with the BD source. :)

That's what I'm thinking and hoping for.

TServo2049 said:

I'm not sure if the 35mm trailer exactly match the release print grading. To point to another Cameron example, the original trailers for Terminator 2 have ungraded nighttime footage with natural skin tones, while the clips on the Siskel and Ebert review, the YouTube 35mm screening clip, and a few film frames I've seen, all seem to show that the theatrical prints had those pumped-up blues we know from all the home releases.

That said, teal existed in the 80s. I've seen an original 35mm of Streets of Fire that has a very similar palette to that Aliens 35mm trailer. The Terminator theatrical trailer (which I've seen on two separate occasions) also has a similar color scheme. The problem is that the color balancing done in the digital realm works completely differently from the original photochemical timing. Even if the general color scheme looks similar, the balance of those colors in the digital realm, and the way certain colors can be completely timed out of the image, were impossible when the films were originally made/released. You just couldn't push everything towards teal/green and drop all blue out of the image - there was ALWAYS blue in the color timing back in the 80s.

That said, it also wouldn't surprise me if the '95 LD was somehow adjusted (Photochemically? After transfer?) to pump up the blues. Those deep, sometimes almost indigo blues remind me more of the 90s than the 80s (reminds me of Jurassic Park, Independence Day, and of course T2). Was that LD the theatrical cut, or the Special Edition?

You are absolutely right Tservo. Trailers are not a good source to color grade off of since they sometimes don't have final color timing. I pointed that out myself back a couple of pages when I first posted pics from the trailer. I'm just trying to gather as much evidence as to the look of Aliens without a 35mm release print to work with. This is just some detective work.

Case in point I have been comparing Aliens two trailers against each other and found a spot where the color timing is different, clearly a result of photo chemical timing. But that difference actually helps me figure out a few things.

I agree with you about Teal/Blue existing in the 80s and before. And Cameron always loved his blues. From the Abyss on he was incorporating them as much as possible into his films. Problem is did he have them in Aliens? The BD has been re-timed to remove any hint of blue and replace most colors and tints with green.

StarThoughts said:

The THX LD was of the theatrical cut, it came out with a wave of Dolby AC-3 releases. The extended version was only in the CAV box set, as I recall.

TServo2049 said:

What does the color on the extended LD look like?

bigrob said:

StarThoughts said:

The THX LD was of the theatrical cut, it came out with a wave of Dolby AC-3 releases. The extended version was only in the CAV box set, as I recall.

 

Thats correct. I own both of these editions and can confirm

Yep that's right. The THX is theatrical only. I don't have the extended edition anymore. Lost it in a move long ago. I have been reluctant to pick up a copy since it is a notorious rotter and the picture on it was terrible. Full of over the top noise (there is a whole story about that). I would like to know what it looks like though.

So I had an idea. I gathered all the picture information from the 35mm trailer(s) I could gather. I wanted to try an experiment. I created a color "average" of how the BD and the 35mm differ. What I was looking for is; if I applied a general grade to Aliens, what would that look like. Would other scenes look like they do from the trailers? Or the DVD, LD, BD, what have you. 

So does it work? Yes and no. More yes then no since a few scenes still seem to have a little green from the BD. And some scenes go randomly of in the wrong direction color-wise. Also, you really need to grade cut by cut to recreate "true" color grading. Having said that I'm pretty happy with it as an experiment. The colors are somewhere between the DVD and LD. More saturated then the DVD not crazy like the LD. Like the close up of Ripley talking to Burke is redish like the LD. The interiors of Gateway station are red like the LD. On the other hand LV-426 are light blue like the DVD not over saturated like the LD. Overall if I had to call it, it seems more LD then DVD. Compare these pics to the ones above and on the first page.

Aliens overall graded to 35mm trailer

This was a first test. I also created a less red more blue version which ended up having very cool timing, a more DVD look and more "Cameron" but the skin tones are too pale compared to the 35mm frames.

BD/BD regraded to 35mm "red" version/BD regraded to 35mm "blue" version

Work on Alien continues

I think Cameron used blues in Aliens, and in Terminator. I was just saying that 1.) While it was never a primary color like in modern regrades, teal was NOT an invention of the 2000s; all 80s prints I've seen have SOME amount of teal as a secondary/tertiary color in blue-cast/dark/night scenes, so video transfers with NO teal are probably not accurate; 2.) I'm not sure that the theatrical prints were as overpoweringly blue as the 1995 laserdisc.

The "blue" version looks a bit like some of the prints I've seen projected at the Castro. Yeah, maybe a little TOO cold, but I don't recall the prints I saw of Streets of Fire, Legend, Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Lethal Weapon, The Running Man or Evil Dead II having skin tones looking AS red as the "red" version. Can you get skin tones closer to the trailer images? Sure, we just said they may not be theatrically accurate, but they still look close to skin tones I've seen in actual 80s prints.

Another characteristic I've seen in 80s prints - very often, fire looks quite yellow. Anybody ever notice that with 80s prints, or is this due to me seeing all these prints at the same theater through the same projector?

Man, I wish I could see a print.

TServo2049 said:

I think Cameron used blues in Aliens, and in Terminator. I was just saying that 1.) While it was never a primary color like in modern regrades, teal was NOT an invention of the 2000s; all 80s prints I've seen have SOME amount of teal as a secondary/tertiary color in blue-cast/dark/night scenes, so video transfers with NO teal are probably not accurate; 2.) I'm not sure that the theatrical prints were as overpoweringly blue as the 1995 laserdisc.

The "blue" version looks a bit like some of the prints I've seen projected at the Castro. Yeah, maybe a little TOO cold, but I don't recall the prints I saw of Streets of Fire, Legend, Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Lethal Weapon, The Running Man or Evil Dead II having skin tones looking AS red as the "red" version. Can you get skin tones closer to the trailer images? Sure, we just said they may not be theatrically accurate, but they still look close to skin tones I've seen in actual 80s prints.

Another characteristic I've seen in 80s prints - very often, fire looks quite yellow. Anybody ever notice that with 80s prints, or is this due to me seeing all these prints at the same theater through the same projector?

Man, I wish I could see a print.

 I think we are in agreement TServo. I do think there was blue and teal before its current craze . When there exists a movie like Suspira, any color can exist on film. And I do agree that Aliens probably has blue in it. My experiments also kind of confirm my suspicion about that. I think the 95 LD is a good attempt to try to duplicate the colors of a release print. They just pushed it too far. My 35mm trailer test seems to have blue just less then the 95.

My big problem with Aliens is the green, which Cameron added to this, Terminator and for some reason Titanic. I'm pretty confident saying a blanket green is not right. That's modern color timing.

The "blue" version was an attempt to get white back to something concerning white from my "Red" version". It looks good in a vacuum but the problem is without the red there, the background colors tend to go back to green (see the back of that shot and the bottom of Apone's hat bill). Whereas in the "red" version the backgrounds are the light, pale blue. See the surface of LV-426. Frankly, the "red" also matches the 35mm trailers better since those scenes are from later in the film where skin tones change to redder and the lighting goes darker for mood. Fire also look more yellow with the red version. That's not to say its perfect, the shot of Hicks holding the shotgun looking back isn't right. There are a bunch of scenes that are wrong, mostly at the beginning where lighting is cold. But between the 35mm frames and the LD I think that's a little closer to what Aliens looks may have looked liked in theaters.

I'm thinking splitting the difference between the red and blue versions. Here is a bit of refinement:

You are right 35mm print is the way to go. Hopefully someone can find a copy.

bigrob said:

Annoying thing is that I've seen a 35mm print of Aliens TWICE on the big screen lol. From what I remember, the blue timt was there

The Prince Charles cinema in London show it regularly. Will check their programme

If it does come maybe you can take a pic or two? Or a least some notes. I have the blue just need to know how much saturation to put back in.

The blacks looks WAAAY too crushed in the 3rd pic (Breakfast table scene).

Turisu said:

While the 35mm trailer shots may or may not be an excellent source, do you not think it might make more sense to grade to a known source such as LD or DVD rather than trying to guess the look of a theatrical print?

In my view, as soon as one starts going with what 'feels' right or trying to strike a balance between sources, it's starting on the slippery slope towards just another revisionist version rather than an attempt at a preservation.

Any thoughts on this?

 The goal of this project as any project I have started is to get as close to a 35mm print as possible. Frankly, in most, if not all cases that not going to be possible since I don't have access to 35mm prints. So removing that whats the best source outside of a 35mm print I can get?

For Alien, it seems that the THX LD is the closest video to 35mm print. That's based off evidence found and basically looking at something like 12 different sources (LDs, trailers, tape, DVDs, etc).

For Aliens, the funny thing is that the DVDs, BD and THX LD are all from a negative scan and all look very different. And as we know a negative scan does not look the same as a release print.

I chose to use the 95 THX LD since it looked like an honest attempt to duplicate the look of a release print with warmer tones, saturated colors and high contrast. That and I used the THX LD for Alien. Problem is that it is too much saturation. I think the colors are generally right but done to extremes. Skin tones are sometimes blistering red. Blue is overwhelming (see the pics on the first page). That's why I went looking for more and found pics from the trailers. The trailer and the THX match is broad strokes. Red here, blue here, etc. But I don't have enough pics from the trailers to shot by shot grade the entire film. So the plan was to use the THX LD as a base and manage the colors to the level of the trailers.

The above was an experiment. If I grade one or two scenes will the entire movie fall into line with the pics in the trailer. If the BD is universally graded instead of shot by shot graded it should work. I'm betting on the BD being done with laziness. And it does for the most part but its not perfect. What it does give me is warmer skin tones and it brings back the Cameron blues that the LD and DVD have and the BD doesn't have. It also gives me things the LD does wrong like the facehugger in the jars scene is more gray in the trailer but purple in the LD (gray with purple/pink highlights on the DVD, green in the BD). 

All from changing one or two scenes. I started adding more and more shots from the trailers. Further, work is an attempt to pull it back or closer to the LD, entirely based on the blues of the LD or the reds. The LD has always been the base and then fine tuning with the 35mm shots. 

Honestly, I have been accused of being too rigid and dogmatic about following LD or DVD colors in the past. This is first time I have been accused of the opposite. Lol. Rest assured I'm not going for what I like best or what people on the OT like best but what is the best based off the information I have. I'm trying to fix revisionism not create my own.

TylerDurden389 said:

The blacks looks WAAAY too crushed in the 3rd pic (Breakfast table scene).

You win the prize. I was wondering who would be the first to point that out. Yep, I changed the contrast and gamma around on purpose to match the trailer's look (which is crushed like most 35mm trailers and prints). That pic is crushed as is all the pics from my trailer experiment. I still have the original contrast setting from the BD (which sadly started out crushed)

So just playing around. I'm not married to those settings.

Yay!! I won.

No Ralph. This means you're failing English.

Me fail English? That's unpossible!!

(Oh and thanks for clearing that up, literally. The new pic of the breakfast scene looks much better :) )

TylerDurden389 said:

Yay!! I won.

No Ralph. This means you're failing English.

Me fail English? That's unpossible!!

(Oh and thanks for clearing that up, literally. The new pic of the breakfast scene looks much better :) )

I'm just funning around here, but your post is like a Frink mating call, using the word "unpossible" , LMMFAO. 

He will come .....  ;)

I laughed, nothing beats classic Simpsons

This of any use to anyone? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121506053363?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I'd love to see what's on that.

It's not completed yet, he still has some things to tweak.

Doombot is in the know.

The short is: I'm still actively working on it and have picked up the pace recently now that work has died down a bit for Christmas. 

The long is:

The video is done (and that was the hard part). Been done since November but syncing has taken longer with me trying to finish up work for the year. The 4.1 comes from the BR so its in sync. Jonno provided me with the 2.0 Dolby Surround/Stereo from the Collections Edition laserdisc and I finished sync on that a few days ago. I am currently syncing up the Dolby Digital 5.1 from the THX laserdisc (aka the sensurround/70mm test track).

The next question is do I do menus and extras? Jonno has a found one or two nice extras but in order to include them I need to do menus which I can't do at the moment. I have Adobe Encore, so it becomes a question of can I teach myself to create semi-professional looking menus. Right now if I do menus I'm leaning toward pop-up ones only like Warner Bros' BRs.

My plan at the moment is to give a link to several people to download first to test it before I make it public. The reason why is I hand regraded 2,537 shots and/or individual frames over a 5 month period. Since that a lot work and its my first project, I want to make sure there are no hiccups before I set it loose. So it will be test to make sure I didn't miss a frame, there's bad audio sync, etc.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

WOW! A lot of work!!! Hope you will decide to make menus and, if possible, extras too... c'mon, make me (us) happy... (^^,)

 Hope, I can live up to the standards you set Andrea. Maybe I can send you a test copy to look at sometime.