Act Breaks? — Page 2

TV's Frink said:

doubleofive said:

I'm fairly certain my friend did not write (500) Days of Summer.

Fairly.

***SPOILER ALERT*** (just for the fink)

Ripley: This little girl survived longer than that, with no weapons and no training!

Hudson: Well, why don't you put her in charge?!!!

theres a dilemma! if they had put her in charge would they have all made it off world alive??? ...well bishop still had to remote pilot the dropship down from the sulaco... but anyway....

how many acts are in aliens??? i think theres more than 3!

act1/prologue - ripley is found, explaining the alien threat to anyone who didnt see alien (yes, i never saw alien untill after watching aliens!) ends before burke and gorman arrive to explain the new plot.

act2 - new plot explained/Colonial Marines introduced. Ripleys apartment - just before landing on lv-426

act3 - LV-426 - re-introduced (changes since previous alien movie explained) /new character & ripley interaction/development - the seemingly abandoned colony complex - gung-ho-ness of marines with Ripleys - older/wiser knowing what to expect attitude. ends - when area is declared secure.

act4 - Newt - a surprise new character is revealed who is presented as the suspense prelude just before the action kicks off.

The first major action sequence in which colonial marines and their gung-ho antics are shown to be completely innefective, their asses handed to them. (Kinda like the hero movie formula, you like em better when the hero gets beat up and then makes a come back in the final scene! - however this film twists the hero formula a bit and is more ESB in that regard)

act 5 - aftermath of battle, tables are turned, more character development - brought down a peg or two our heroes now have to formulate a better plan. Better plan - ends badly - these aliens are "Bad ass!" ends with most of the marines being slaughtered and the little girl being kidnapped.

act 6 - The quiet thoughtfull marine, survives (hicks) but indisposed so that ripley (our heroine) can go and save newt and save the day. What seems like the final act untill.....

act 7 - surprise/bonus act - the main villain is not dead!! and new twists abound (power loader being used as a weapon!) untill end. Two mothers fighting it out for the little girl one evil one good. Good prevails... end...or so we thought.....

now 2 or 3 sequels later... we wished it had ended there!

in Alien 4 when Ripley goes into that room and see's all the disfigured clones - i thought eww! and kinda sad at the same time - a stiring scene.

Then when i saw the alien/human hybrid thing i felt sick....then when i saw it bite into someones head i thought........EWWW! TOO FAR! (just something about the way it was filmed) and switched it off!!!.... (had a lay down then came back to watch the rest thru gritted teeth)

I like the movie up to that bit and then the final scene where Ripley and co look out into the cloudcover of earth.... if the movie could be edited so they blow up the ship before getting a chance to see the alien/human hybrid id be very happy! just seeing it gives me the creeps! and i very rarely get affected in such a way with horror films.

Maybe we should make a "Child Actors That Were Only In One Really Popular Movie (And Where Are They Now)" thread?

Jake lloyd is the guy i feel sorry for - no doubt being asked to play anakin skywalker would b cool for any 8 year old. But at that age you have no idea if the script that has been written is going to be any good or not! and his parents obviously werent star wars fans cos they should have known better too! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtkM2JPcHPo

This guy was the prequels first casualty, and at so young an age! now he's developed a complex about it, cos people keep making fun of him when it really didnt have much to do with him.... and it totally put him off acting for the rest of his life.

Infact im surprised his family, didnt sue George Lucas for abuse of his position and ruining a young boys life!

Lance Henriksen has some shockingly direct comments that play during the closing credits to Alien3 on the commentary track.  He basically says, "I'm not sure who the audience is supposed to root for in this film.  The murderers and rapists don't really earn, or deserve it."  That does seem, to me, to be the major flaw.

Aliens, in 3 Acts

Let me give this a shot.  I think you're right, there is some stuff before the real story starts, but lets call that a prologue and not act 1.

Prologue- Ripley is rescued and goes back to Earth.
Act 1 - Ripley joins the Marines' mission, all characters are introduced, and Marines land on LV-426 and find Newt.  THE PROBLEM: Aliens have taken out the colony.
Act 2 - The Marines find the hive with the colonists, the aliens attack and kill half of the force.  The rescue/kill the alien mission is scrubbed and they decide to tactfully retreat.  The aliens attack the drop ship and it crashes.  They decide to set up the antenna to remote pilot the other drop ship planetside.  THE PROBLEM GETS WORSE: The Marines can't just shoot the all of aliens.  There are too many of them, and they are unprepared for the assault.  They lose half of their team and decide to retreat.
Act 3 - This begins when Newt is taken by the aliens and Ripley decides to rescue her.  Against unsurmountable odds, Bishop is able to bring the shuttle down, and Hicks, Bishop, Ripley and Newt escape the planet.
Epilogue - The Queen is on board the spaceship.  Ripley kills the Queen once and for all, and they all go into stasis for the journey home.

Please submit your disagreements. 

thats great but its still 5 acts :p

if we were talking about a book id give ya the prologue, 3 chapters and the epilogue but we're not :p

cutnshut said:

thats great but its still 5 acts :p

It's true.  It's 5 segments.  But, as far as I understand the 3 act structure, it makes sense to call them prologues and epilogues, because the central 3 Acts ARE the 3 Act structure.

Okay, so onto ESB.

Looking at the timeline (http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Original-Trilogy-Times-Chart/post/411140/#TopicPost411140), it's really easy to subdivide this movie into three equal-ish parts:

1. Hoth
2. Dagobah/Asteroid Field
3. Cloud City

These may or may not represent the acts of the movie, though.  Let's see:

The "problem" of the movie, I would say, is that Darth Vader is looking for Luke Skywalker.  Which is sort of odd, because right there, it makes it seem that Vader is the main character of the movie... which isn't true from a scene-by-scene analysis of the movie.  But if you think of the "problem" that drives the plot of the 3 acts, I think that's it.  Is there a better one?

Act 1- The fact that Vader is looking for Luke is introduced in the opening crawl, just like the Death Star problem was introduced in ANH's opening crawl.  Vader is looking for the Rebels because they have Luke.  The problem isn't very serious, however, because we all expect the Rebels to escape Hoth.  Act one is over when the good guys get their minor victory and everyone escapes.

Act 2- Obviously, Luke on Dagobah is the major setpiece in this timeframe, but it doesn't actually have much to do with the 2nd Act of Empire Strikes Back.  Instead, it's really the middle of the Macro (Trilogy) Act 2, and Luke is setting about solving the Macro problem (The Evil Empire) and not the immediate movie problem (Vader searches for Luke) except that he is hiding.  For this reason, Luke must leave the safety of Dagobah to end Act 2, and get Vader's quest back on track.  Meanwhile, Han and Leia are also working on the middle of the 2nd Macro act and solving the macro sub-problem of the love triangle.  Yes, Vader is chasing them to solve his main problem, but that is not what we spend the majority of our time watching.  Vader hiring Bounty Hunters though, increases the threat that Han and Leia will get caught, which drives them out of the Act 2 stalemate.

Act 3 - I'm not sure which scene exactly starts Act 3, but it's either at the very start of the dark atmosphere on Cloud City or it's Dinner with Vader.  Usually we see the hero prevail in Act 3, against all odds, and it seems to be true in this case, except again that Vader is the "hero" of Empire's 3 Acts.  He captures the wily Han Solo, and successfully draws young Skywalker to him.  They fight, and the first time viewer expects a clean win on Luke's part, but perhaps they haven't been paying attention to the actual structure of the movie (who is, when you have the great sabre battle going on?).  Leia and company escape, but that's not the focus of this story.  Their part in "the problem" has been played out, and they're just setting up their ability to participate in the sequel- the macro 3rd Act.  The 'twist' ending is of the variety where we reinterpret what the problem actually was.  We thought Vader was searching for Luke because he is his enemy, and possibly because he wants to turn him to the Dark Side, so his real motivations surprise us.  He wants to turn him to the Dark Side because he is his son, and he wants to overthrow the Emperor.

At any rate, Luke's defeat and subsequent escape is the end of Empire's 3rd Act.  That and the few minutes that follow form the perfect ending to the Macro 2nd Act, as the Heroes are at their lowest, most unlikely to win scenario.

xhonzi said:

cutnshut said:

thats great but its still 5 acts :p

It's true.  It's 5 segments.  But, as far as I understand the 3 act structure, it makes sense to call them prologues and epilogues, because the central 3 Acts ARE the 3 Act structure.

 Now im no film maker.... BUT... act = segment here so there are no prologues and epilgues - I know you want to fit it to the 3 act structure but its just not working and ...but im, ......*droid mode activated* "Where are you taking them?....wait, uh...oh You're under arrest!"

so.....still 5 acts! :p

ESB - my take on the act structure.

I am sick of the movie crawls and the opening theme - I've had 30years of them? (roughly) and cant take them anymore! Why does every star wars movie have to start that way? ... there is no reason! only because the first one had it - why not start them off differently use a bit of imagination - like they did with the star trek movies!. anyway.. *rant mode off*

PS i dont care what anyone else's opinion is!! :p

ESB

Act1: Imperials have chased our heroes across the galaxy, on the remote iceworld of Hoth the Rebels led by Luke Skywalker are putting together the final touches to their latest base. Meanwhile....The evil Lord Darth Vader, Obsessed with finding young Skywalker has launched thousands of remote probes into space....

Establish Rebels - Establish Imperials (and establish Darth Vader is infact alive!). introduce new character development of Han & Leias relationship....and Luke is still getting into trouble. Act 1 establishes the heroes and villains and the main plot - The rebels are being hunted by Vader and the Imperials. Act one ends with the evacuation of Hoth, Han & Leia escape aboard Falcon and Luke travels to Dagobah.

The introductions are over - the might of the empire has been established, and the heroes split up to further their character development.

Act2:

Two stories make up act 2 which i'll refer to as a and b:

A: Luke arrives on Dagobah and begins further training, the main thought here is that don't judge someone by their size. this is not the main part of act 2 but rather - provides character driven interludes from the Han & Leia story that help to build tension and suspense. to what otherwise would be a very action orientated act.

B: Han and Leia - This is the main focus of the act - Han and Leia appear to be pursued by Vader as he attempts to capture them. Its very exciting, but generally they go from one bad moment only to find themselves getting in a worse situation.  During this Vader, employs the bounty hunters to track down the millenium falcon. A cat and mouse type movie instead of the heroes journey type formula of the first movie.

Act 3:

All the threads of the story merge here at Bespin: Luke lands, Leia and Han have been captured - dramaticness ensues, the Empire appears to have the upper hand at each turn and finally the Rebels escape but at what price? movie ends.

Hows that?

Cut'n'shut,

RE: ESB

You are describing what happens in three parts of the movie, but you are not explaining WHY the Acts are defined by whats happening in those segments.  As that one guy says, Acts are more than a "Beginning, Middle and End" because lunch lines have Beginnings, Middles, and Ends.

What do you see as the "central problem" the one that drives all three acts, in ESB?  Start there and work your way back through the Acts.  It can sometimes be hard to identify the central problem, and an easy trick is to ask yourself, "What is resolved in the third act?" and that will narrow it down right quick.

RE: 5 Acts vs 3 Acts + Pro/Epilogue

It's really the same thing, you're right.  But since 5 act is so rare in modern filmmaking, I think it makes sense to refer to the central 3 Acts still as Acts 1-3, since those 3 Acts are the 3 Acts from 3 Act structure.

Here's Freytag's pyramid.  It shows 5 Acts, but most modern movies ignore 5 Act structure, and just focus on the central 3.  So, for the sake of comparing the odd movie that has 5 Acts to the rest of them that have 3 Acts...  We want to compare "the problem gets worse" to "the problem gets worse" so we say Act 2.  Even if that's really Act 3 in the 5 Act structure.

You feelin' me?

Darth Vader [has] no character development [in ESB].)

You're joking, right?

RE: The rest of you yahoos... take your Newt pictures and shove them up your frinks.

well you can take yer freytigs pyramid and shove that up frinks arse an all! as i dont see a director having a "Freytig" moment to say "Hey everyone lets pause here and see how what we've done compares to Freytigs triangle! ....oh.....uh.....mmmmm ok this movies a disaster....its doesnt work! ---- ok maybe thats what GL SHOULD have done when he made the prequels but otherwise its just high-school textbook carp that you've read and think oh cool maybe i can sound like i actually know something and make someone else look like the idiot for a change....lets make movies that fit this line of incidence graph or whatever........carp!

And no Darth Vader has no character development other than at the end of return of the jedi where obviously his character does change once he saves Luke from the Emperor. Its contamination from the prequels thats clouded your judgement! I don't class what he says to Luke at Bespin as character development - since you can't tell if he's telling the truth or not, it could be just an evil ploy to sway Luke to the Darkside! - Its character development for Luke, sure, as it has a big impact on him!- but Darth Vaders only ever on screen for a few minutes each time, says a few lines and then its back to the rebels again. Thats not the kind of role that would class as "Main Character or worthy of character development" - Any character development for Darth Vader has only come from the prequel movies. 

Darth Vaders character development during the OT:

(below is just clarify that there is no character development for the big DV!...his role...beliefs do not change throughout the movies)

Star wars - Start's evil - end's Evil (plus looks a bit stoopid spinning around in his ship untill infinity!)

Empire Strikes Back - Start's Evil, End's Evil! (yeah see how you like it rebels!)

Return of the Jedi - Start's Evil - 15 mins before finale - Ends Good.

Character development is more than whether one is evil or not.  (or looking 'stoopid')

 Its contamination from the prequels thats clouded your judgement!

No it's not!  AND YOU'RE BEGINNING TO SOUND LIKE A SEPARATIST!

RE: Darth Vader- not enough screen time to be major character

Luke, Han, Leia and even Yoda, Chewbacca and R2-D2 (probably even Lobot) get more screen time than Vader, so it's true- and I think I already said this... going by the standard definition, he's clearly not the main character of the film.  However, I think if you look at who is driving the plot, and whose problem is "the problem" of the film, I think you have to conclude it is Vader.  Vader is not the protagonist of the film, but he is the protagonist of the problem which is at the center of the 3 acts upon which the film is hung.

Which should come as no surprise, really.  It's very common for the Antagonist to rule over Act 2.  So again returning to the Macro Acts for the trilogy, we see that Vader rules over all of ESB, and that he is the Protagonist of the problem, even if we don't see the story from his perspective.

It can be a little like arguing that since Sherlock Holmes stories are told from the perspective of John Watson, and that he indeed is in more of the book than Holmes... that Watson has somehow become the main character of the book.

Watson is the perspective character.  Holmes is the main character.