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Abrams is Destroying Star Trek like Lucas has Destroyed Star Wars — Page 25

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This New film is just Messy and lazy writing, also film-making.

The Delta Vega problem is one thing most trek-fans are puzzling about.
Delta Vega in this movie is a ice world (moon?) by vulcan in which old spock, Scotty (just happens to be too) and kirk (just happens to be also) thrown on.

The Delta Vega problem is that Delta Vega is NOT an ice-world nor is it be by vulcan.

Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman's Messy and lazy writing is in action here.

The Delta Vega problem is an major error by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman.
They used the wrong name for the ice-moon by vulcan.

Even in the new timeline of this film, Star Trek: Enterprise is still canon (hell even scotty talks about Archer in the new film) because the alternating of the timeline is 100 years after the event of Star Trek: Enterprise.

The ice-moon by Vulcan is Andoria and NOT Delta Vega.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorian

See Messy and lazy writing.

Man, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are dumb-a@@**

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Hunter6 said:


This New film is just Messy and lazy writing, also film-making.

The Delta Vega problem is one thing most trek-fans are puzzling about.
Delta Vega in this movie is a ice world (moon?) by vulcan in which old spock, Scotty (just happens to be too) and kirk (just happens to be also) thrown on.

The Delta Vega problem is that Delta Vega is NOT an ice-world nor is it be by vulcan.

Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman's Messy and lazy writing is in action here.

The Delta Vega problem is an major error by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman.
They used the wrong name for the ice-moon by vulcan.

Even in the new timeline of this film, Star Trek: Enterprise is still canon (hell even scotty talks about Archer in the new film) because the alternating of the timeline is 100 years after the event of Star Trek: Enterprise.

The ice-moon by Vulcan is Andoria and NOT Delta Vega.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorian

See Messy and lazy writing.

Man, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are dumb-a@@**

 

Ridiculous.  Andorians are from a different system entirely.  Just because it's cited as being "near vulcan" and an ice planet does not make it Andoria.  The Andorian and Vulcan homeworlds are light-years apart, and one could never see the destruction of Vulcan from the surface of Andoria, not even with a Vulcan naked eye.

I agree that the ice moon (and it being Delta Vega, last seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", though it is obvious from the film itself that "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is not considered in-continuity (that is, Prime continuity) by the writers of the film) was an asspull, but at least it was fun.  Would have been a lot better if Spock was on the surface of T'Khut, Vulcan's "twin." (see http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/T'Khut )  But I just accepted it as a previously-unmentioned frozen body in the Vulcan (40 Eridani) system, just far enough outside Vulcan's orbit (or perhaps tidally locked and always enough in Vulcan's shadow) to have such a difference in climate.  Still, in a triple star system like 40 Eri, it doesn't seem likely that so close to an oppressively hot, arid planet would be a frozen one (and who knows if the whole thing is frozen anyway, or if Kirk just landed on some sort of ice cap -- I don't recall what the establishing shot of the planet looked like).

"'Vulcan has no moon,' various Vulcans have been heard to remark: accurate as always, when speaking scientifically. 'Damn right it doesn't,' at least one Terran has responded: 'It has a nightmare.'" (Spock's World by Diane Duane)

From how it was written, and the allusions to a several of the better Star Trek novels, I think I'm pretty safe in saying that Kurtzman and Orci are Trekkies like us.  I highly enjoyed the film, even with all the time-tampering and subsequent invalidation of every series.  All of that happened; if it hadn't, Ambassador Spock wouldn't remember it, or he would have ceased to exist as soon as he arrived in the past.  Every legend has to have an end: in Christianity, you have the Apocalypse and New Creation, and the binding of Satan; in Norse mythology, there's Ragnarok, the death of the Gods, and the Frost Giants triumphing; in Greek mythology, Zeus would be overthrown and the world cast into darkness; etc.  For Batman, it's The Dark Knight Returns, and for Superman, Kingdom Come.  In Trek, the end of the future is technological, and mired in time travel, quite fitting to a science-fiction universe, and not only this, but the rebirth of the franchise into a new universe, a new 'creation' if you will, mirrors the rebirth aspects of a lot of the mythological cycles I listed above.  Not to mention the fantastic possibilities of a new Trek universe, with all the stops pulled out.  Would be kinda neat if they toss off references to things that wouldn't have been changed by Nero's mucking about in the future (v'ger, the whale probe) -- of course, that's twenty (filmic) years down the pipe, but it would be cool to find out that for some reason, it's a completely different crew that saves earth in those incidents, while Kirk and co are on watch at the neutral zone or something.

One thing that did bother me was how fast they promoted Kirk to captain following his graduation from the Academy.

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Gotta say, some of the movie suffers from the "convenient" syndrome, but I loved it nonetheless.  It felt like Trek, even though it ventured into some of the summer blcokbuster cliches.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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"The Lens Flare" technique in this movie is the new Jar Jar.  Lens flares inside EVERY ship, lens flares outside, both in space and in multiple planets atmosphere...lens flares every fucking 30 seconds through out the whole dam movie.... FUCKING ANNOYING.

 

Other than that it was ok.....:)

 

 

 

I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.

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guitarfan01 said:

One thing that did bother me was how fast they promoted Kirk to captain following his graduation from the Academy.

True, but remember that they just lost about 7 ships worth of command crews in a single day. And I'm sure he'd have been  highly recommended by Pike.

 

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vbangle said:

 Lens flares inside EVERY ship, lens flares outside, both in space and in multiple planets atmosphere...lens flares every fucking 30 seconds through out the whole dam movie.... FUCKING ANNOYING.

 

I would agree with that.  Too many lens flares took away from their effect. 

I also felt it was borderline too shaky & too close in the opening battle.  They occasionally took away the geography.

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Something I wanted to mention here, after seeing it, is how context can greatly affect how a movie clip or trailer is percieved.  Several pages back, there was some discussion on two trailer scenes.  One where Kirk was smart-mouthing Spock and what appeared to be an unrelated scene later where Spock is attacking Kirk.

There were a few pre-haters that were denouncing the film outright, and they mentioned those two scenes in particular.  The tone in their posts was as though Abrams had broken some sort of unspoken law, Abrams is satan, etc, etc. The topic of context came up, but they didn't want to hear it - even though they were quick to lambaste me for doing the same thing (which I did as an example) with some of their sacred scenes from past films.

Those two scenes now make much more sense and in fact, to me, are a very cerebral part of the film - Spock assuring Kirk that he's been emotionally compromised and pushing him into trying to break him so that he admits it. I thought that whole passage, particularly with old Spock, was done very well.

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Yeah, I have to admit. Though I was against it before, once I found myself having to put up with how annoying Kirk is in this film, I loved every second of him getting knocked around by Spock. I can forgive most of the flaws in this film, but obnoxious Kirk is something that just won't let me enjoy it. I just can't stand his character.

Oh, but that black shirt he was wearing through much of the film with the Starfleet insignia, I want one of those. That was a cool shirt.

To say a few good things about the movie, I really liked the new uniforms. They managed to make them feel more modern, and yet still strongly resemble those from TOS.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

Yeah, I have to admit. Though I was against it before, once I found myself having to put up with how annoying Kirk is in this film, I loved every second of him getting knocked around by Spock.

 

To say a few good things about the movie, I really liked the new uniforms. They managed to make them feel more modern, and yet still strongly resemble those from TOS.

Yeah, he's not a terribly likable guy, which I guess is the point.  We're not really supposed to like him. He is being somewhat humbled as the film goes on.  Particularly where Uhura is concerned.  It's an ego blow when he realizes Spock is her guy.  I suppose we'll see him grow into the Kirk we know in the next film.  I thought it was nice character growth to see him say he would be honored to have Spock on the crew.

And a  +1 to the black shirts.  Very nice.  I also agree on the uniforms being updated as opposed to complete re-dos with no resemblance to the originals - also well done.

 

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Saw this yesterday with my fiancee, and we both loved it.  I never loved TOS - I was 10 when Star Wars came out, had never seen TOS at the time, and could just never get past the cheesiness of TOS (I was a kid, what can I say?).  Liked some of the movies (II, III, IV, VI), never a regular watcher of the other series, though I caught the occasional episode.

The beauty of a "reboot" is it allows them to utilize affection for the original characters and milieu, without being bound to them.  I loved the pause as Kirk came onto the bridge at the end of the movie - felt just like Shatner's character, but different at the same time, and free to go off in a different direction.  Would go see a sequel tomorrow, if possible.

Gads, I wish somebody had the ability to reboot Star Wars - it needs it desperately.

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Hunter6 said:

This bad Star Trek film is so over-hype and the mind-less zombies are in their "It's Amazing" mode (Yet, by the time This film goes to DVD, the mind-less zombies will be in their "It Sucks" mode).

Hunter6 said:

"vote_for_palpatine", I really hate the Lemmings who use the word "hater". Saying Hater is just for the Hype-Lemmings not to think about things. The People on TF.n use the word "Hater" all the time. 

well i've stopped taking anything you say seriously any more. how old are you 12?. so its ok for you to call any of the people  that disagree with you and think this the movie is great "mindless Zombies" but its not ok not when someone retaliates & calls you a "hater". hater is far less of an insult than calling people mindless zombies any day. Only someone with delusions of grandeur would turn to insults because someone disagrees with you. You are not a god and your opinion is just that. An opinion. and then you post comments off other sites to try and prove your point. damn this could be done to back up an argument about how crap any movie is. all you have to do is eliminate any positive comments and you can say that everyone else agrees with you and it can work the other way around too.  I could probably post pages of very positive comments on threads about AOTC but that doesn't mean that everyone thinks its a great film now does it?

 

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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This is my take on the new movie at the moment.

Would the fact that the screenwriters referenced quantum theory allow for trek to be a multiverse?

I mean You have the mirror universe and different quantum realities. But here the time travel actually changes the prime universe of tos.


Even though it refers to techno babble of temporal paradox does not change the fact in my mind the original timeline is still Intact if you consider this an alternate excursion and branching off of the original series.

I'm going with the multiverse take and IDIC. Infinite Diversity IN Infinite Combinations. Allows them to write their own version of treks fictional history without destroying or erasing 40+ years of continuity.

There are still things i don't like about this movie, I find Pine's Kirk to be obnoxious and a Jerk.  I find the James Dean Rebel archetype has been used far too many times.  Hayden Christensen as Anakin in the star wars prequels for one example. 

 

Let me try and list things i like about the movie:

-Zoe Saldana as Uhura

-Big Budget special effects 

-A new unique fresh take on the franchise.  Like When Nick Meyer directed Wrath of Khan.

-The fact that the actors are allowed to believably grow into their roles in the film.  The second film will be much easier.  The First film was a setup and leaves room for more Trekking.

- I found Simon Pegg as scotty to be funny.  The worry that he was the new jar jar was unfounded.

- Karl Urban as Dr Leonard "Bones" MCcoy. 

- The New Enterprise takes a while to get used to but is created lovingly in CGI by ILM.

- JJ Abrams for having the courage to dare to make a break from 40 years of canon so they have limitless possibilties in the future of where they take this franchise.

- JJ Abrams also for not producing a film as Bad as the star wars prequels.

-JJ Abrams and his cinematographer for using film instead of HD Video.

- Quinto as Spock

- Nimoy as Spock Prime.

- Chris Pine for not doing a Shatner impression. And the fact that he can act unlike Hayden.

- now that i think about it with a more open mind going with a fresh Score instead of a pale imitation of Goldsmith was the way to go.  They quote the Alexander Courage theme at the end of the soundtrack.  So there is no reason why they could not use the main title from the motion picture in the next movie, other than it has already been overused.

This film is not the disaster  that the star wars prequels and indy 4 were.  But it is also not on the level of a film as Last years biggest hyped film the Dark Knight.  I do think it would be a better movie than Iron Man minus the lense flares and shaky cam.  Hated it in Cloverfield and i hate it here.

Before i get burned at the stake by star wars and indy fanboys let me say i was entertained by the prequels and indy IV but found them woefully inadequate to the original films.

A few things i liked versus too many to mention i hated.

 

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I think it was very clearly stated in the film that this is an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE - they haven't wiped anything away.  The "Prime" universe still exists, and only 2 things were changed in the "Prime" universe because of this movie:

1) Romulus has been destroyed
2) Spock is presumed dead (though he's actually in the "Alternate" universe)

If they want to, they can still make TNG-era and beyond stories set in the original universe because it was NOT destroyed - it still exists.  There are just two different versions of how things went - the "Prime" universe, where Enterprise, TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager all took place, and the new "Alternate" universe, where the Abrams movie and any of its sequels will take place. (And I guess Enterprise still took place in this new universe, since it is set before 2233 ... )

And while Spock "Prime" told Alternate Kirk that he could under no circumstances tell Alternate Spock that he exists, he was just saying this so A-Kirk would let himself become friends with A-Spock instead of the two hating each other.  The very fact that P-Spock spoke to A-Spock at the end of the film with no "universe-ending paradox" proves that this is a branching timeline, and the original was not destroyed.  Hell, someone from after Romulus is destroyed could theoretically go back in time to when the Narada attacked the Kelvin and stop that from happening, thus destroying the "Alternate" universe and restoring the timeline to its original state.

But I doubt that'll ever happen, because that would truly invalidate the new universe the way people like Hunter claim the new universe invalidates the "Prime" universe (which it doesn't).

--edit--

Oh, and Skyjedi, I'm glad you were able to enjoy the new film despite your strong predisposition against it.  I don't know what's up Hunter's ass, but it clearly wasn't up yours like I assumed it was :-)

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I have always been Partial to time travel stories in science fiction and Star Trek in general.

One of my favorites is of course Back to the Future.  I also love the voyage home but the movie is very dated now.

The City on the Edge of forever written by Harlan Ellison is also one of my fave trek episodes.

Also yesterdays enterprise and all good things.

I also liked first contact though a lot of people said then it was a dumbing down of star trek.

Which the naysayers still claim about the Wrath of Khan.

 

Plus lets remember its not like they are coming to my house to take away my dvd and laserdisc copies of the older movies.  Have not got into Blu Ray yet.  I hope the restored star trek II is released seperately.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Well they can still 'fix' things...they know precisely when the star will go supernova.

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True, but that's the only thing they know about the future.  There may be other set-in-stone things Spock "Prime" could tell them about, but I doubt that he would.  And it wouldn't matter if they stopped the supernova in the "alternate" timeline - the timelines would stay the same.  They just might prevent a possible *third* timeline from developing, assuming the Nero/Spock scenario played out the same way again (which I doubt it would).

And Skyjedi - the current Blu-Ray releases have the theatrical "Motion Picture," "Wrath of Khan" and "Undiscovered Country," but the Director's Cuts of those three will be released on Blu-Ray in the future. (which means TMP's new effects will have to be re-done in HD.  Why the fuck didn't they do it properly to begin with?  Ugh.)

I haven't bought it yet (I'll wait for a price drop), but I really like that the TOS Blu-Ray contains both the remastered AND original episodes.

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skyjedi2005 said:

I have always been Partial to time travel stories in science fiction and Star Trek in general.

One of my favorites is of course Back to the Future.

Funny you should mention that. I listened to an interview with Robert Orci & Alex Kurtzman earlier today on XM radio and they both said that to them, Back To The Future is the ultimate time travel film.

For those of you that have XM, I imagine the show will repeat (I've already heard it twice in a week).  It's very interesting to hear how the whole thing came together, their thoughts on the franchise (they're big fans), and the involvement of Nimoy.  It runs on the XM film score channel - 76, Cinemagic.

 

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adywan said:
Hunter6 said:

This bad Star Trek film is so over-hype and the mind-less zombies are in their "It's Amazing" mode (Yet, by the time This film goes to DVD, the mind-less zombies will be in their "It Sucks" mode).

Hunter6 said:

"vote_for_palpatine", I really hate the Lemmings who use the word "hater". Saying Hater is just for the Hype-Lemmings not to think about things. The People on TF.n use the word "Hater" all the time. 

well i've stopped taking anything you say seriously any more. how old are you 12?. so its ok for you to call any of the people  that disagree with you and think this the movie is great "mindless Zombies" but its not ok not when someone retaliates & calls you a "hater". hater is far less of an insult than calling people mindless zombies any day. Only someone with delusions of grandeur would turn to insults because someone disagrees with you. You are not a god and your opinion is just that. An opinion. and then you post comments off other sites to try and prove your point. damn this could be done to back up an argument about how crap any movie is. all you have to do is eliminate any positive comments and you can say that everyone else agrees with you and it can work the other way around too.  I could probably post pages of very positive comments on threads about AOTC but that doesn't mean that everyone thinks its a great film now does it?

 

EXACTLY.  WAIT!  DIDN'T hunter STATE THAT he WAS GOING TO BOYCOTT THIS MOVIE?

 

"I'VE GROWN TIRED OF ASKING, SO THIS WILL BE THE LAST TIME..."
The Mangler Bros. Psycho Dayv Armchaireviews Notes on Suicide

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Yeah he did, but he had a free movie pass, so it is alright. Right?

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Asides from developing cataracts due to...........

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and the fact that due to the score I half expected Batman to pop up on the bridge of the Enterprise I thought this was a very good outing for Trek.Anyone who thinks that this wasn't a better trek flick than Nemesis or that absolutely god-awful snooze-fest Insurrection is mad.

Karl Urban was great and despite what others have said I rather liked Pine as Kirk and his development through the film.Quinto was very good although i still think he had the easiest job of the three.Simon Pegg was very good too and although many seem to disagree i thought Bana was badass as Nero.

I thought it was plain to see that Orci and Kurtzman ARE Trek fans.I mean,really,is the casual cinema-goer or someone new to the franchise going to get the Kobayashi Maru?

Ya bunch of Kirk-Lovin Spocksuckers..........

Been waiting to get that line in for a while now

;)

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http://www.bigbaddaddyvader.com

Original Star Wars Props and Production Material

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ChainsawAsh said:

Oh, and Skyjedi, I'm glad you were able to enjoy the new film despite your strong predisposition against it.

I'd like to echo that thought as well.   It's refreshing to see people go in even when they expect the worst and then not back down from logging in to post an honest review after.

 

 

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bigbaddaddyvader said:

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Dude!! - how about marking your spoilers?!  Some people haven't seen it yet.

 

;-)

 

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bigbaddaddyvader said:

and the fact that due to the score I half expected Batman to pop up on the bridge of the Enterprise I thought this was a very good outing for Trek.Anyone who thinks that this wasn't a better trek flick than Nemesis or that absolutely god-awful snooze-fest Insurrection is mad.

Karl Urban was great and despite what others have said I rather liked Pine as Kirk and his development through the film.Quinto was very good although i still think he had the easiest job of the three.Simon Pegg was very good too and although many seem to disagree i thought Bana was badass as Nero.

I thought it was plain to see that Orci and Kurtzman ARE Trek fans.I mean,really,is the casual cinema-goer or someone new to the franchise going to get the Kobayashi Maru?

Ya bunch of Kirk-Lovin Spocksuckers..........

Been waiting to get that line in for a while now

;)

 

"The Undiscovered Country" score was much more Batman like. "Generations" was much more generic and television sounding then this new film's score. "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" are equally as forgettable as this new soundtrack. "The Voyage Home" was the worst of all, and the only Star Trek soundtrack album I have never owned.

Having Pine chomping on an apple during the Kobayashi Maru test (in the exact same way Shatner had in "Wrath of Khan" when McCoy, Savik, and Kirk are talking about the test) was great! Only a hard core fan would get that.

“First feel fear, then get angry. Then go with your life into the fight.” - Bill Mollison

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Supposedly the bravado that the Kirk character had on the original series came from the fact that Shatner played Alexander the great in a stage play.  According to Shatner of course,lol.

Roddenberry said he was typed as "Horatio Hornblower in outer space".

Leonard Rosenman's score for Trek IV is a bit too much like his score for lord of the rings by Bakshi.  It borrows heavily from it.  The leitmotif of the opening theme is nearly identical.

Horner always borrows from earlier scores he has worked on as well. Even John Williams does it.

Goldsmith generally composed wholly new soundtracks except for reusing Alexander Courage melodies, The title of the motion picture and the theme of the enterprise.

Spock had his own theme in Horner's score for Trek III and trek II.  As far as i can tell Capatain Kirk never had his own theme.  Nor did most of the characters.  It was John Williams in Star Wars who had themes for the different characters.  In Star Trek the Enterprise itself had themes written for it.

From what i read the new Score for 2009 tried to have a themic unity and a character theme for kirk.  I believe they thought of Williams more than they did Goldsmith, or Horner.

Usually these types of films have a heroic theme or march for the good guys, and an evil theme for the bad guys.  Khan for instance had his own theme, and the Kilingons got a theme in the motion picture though there they were not the evil presence in the film.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.