ATTENTION: Dayv needs our help — Page 12

I'd like to also throw my hat in Gaffer's ring on this one.  Innocent until proven guilty, 100%.

Innocence and guilt are not issues anyone here is qualified to dish out.

Dave is dying of cancer and needing funds to stay alive until proved otherwise that's the key to this issue.

Better documentation may assist people to make a decision as to regards donating or not (and it will be useful in raising money in other ways) but unless Dave tells us differently or someone can provide compelling evidence to the contrary we are dealing here with a dying man who needs money, not a person charged with a crime who needs to prove anything.

I thank Jay again for continuing to provide us with a place to try and keep this topic current and for providing an independent eye on what has been going on but please can we stop the name calling and focus on what is important.

Nobody has to give anything to Dave.

It would be useful for Dave to get the sort of documentation that has been suggested.

Jay said:

. This isn't a court of law and Dayv isn't on trial.

that is exactly why innocence until proven guilty does not apply.  imho.

Bingowings said:

It would be useful for Dave to get the sort of documentation that has been suggested.

and it would look very suspicious if he doesn't doesn't get it.  

how is my attitude bothering you?

I think he means the "He may have lied ... let's fucking lynch him!" attitude that seems to be building here.

Exactly, every time someone on here helps someone else either with funds, equipment, free skills or advice it's done on trust.

If a fan editor says their computer has gone down or they are suddenly in need of a piece of stuff that for various reasons they can't afford or a project that has been part funded by donation is being delayed because of health or family issues we accept that without proof and we often offer help without proof.

It's called trust.

At any time someone for whatever reason could pop up and dismiss those requests for help as being based on untruths.

Unless those claims are backed up with compelling evidence why should we treat the person we were willing to trust earlier any different than we did before?

The main difference here is the nature of the assistance requested and the tight deadline it implies.

I'm sorry if I sound like I have pitchfork in my hands.   The last thing I want to be is the leader of a lynch mob.   But I still feel the reasoning I posted in post 273 of this thread to be logical and correct.   http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ATTENTION-Dayv-needs-our-help/post/461933/#TopicPost461933

Well, I am somewhat on your side warbler, as long as he keeps half assing this effort to provide proof, well that tells me he has none, plus going by past experiences with this ***, I still don't believe it at all, and really does he deserve any more attention? just let him go.

I've been discussing this with C3PX via email.  He has approved this posting of part of an email he sent me:

C3PX said:

I checked up on Dayv's thread at OT. I am not a graphic designer like Dayv, but even I know my way around Photoshop well enough to produce what Jay and Bingo described. All the stuff about putting down pitchforks that is going around the thread is sweet and all, but it really would be the easiest thing in the world for Dayv to produce solid evidence, and the time frame it took him to come up with the questionable piece of evidence he did produce is pretty sketchy. I don't blame people for being mad and acting like they did on the forum, if Dayv is lying that is a pretty big deal, he took advantage of their good faith.
Doctors deal with things like this on a daily basis, it wouldn't have been an unusual request. Of course they couldn't give Jay any information without Dayv signing a release first, but it would have been nothing for Dayv to do so. Literally all it would take is Dayv going into his doctor's office and telling them he needed a letter sent to Jay's address confirming that he was receiving treatment from an oncologist. The letter would be in Jay's mailbox, sent straight from the doctor's office and signed, within just a few days.

The fact that Dayv never bothered to do any of this right after he was first accused would be extremely puzzling, if he were in fact ill. He's had well over half a month to clear his name, and he has just now gotten around to providing some pretty unconvincing and easily forged evidence.

If Dayv was requesting help from any kind of organization or charity specializing in helping cancer patients, they'd ask for documents of proof that he is ill and preparing to undergo treatment, and a document like the one he provided Jay would be entirely unacceptable.

Again, it is nice the members are still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty, but the problem is there is no way, short of a confession from Dayv, to prove that he is guilty. It is far easier for Dayv to prove his innocence than for anyone to prove his guilt. Yet, he still hasn't made much of an attempt to do so, and I am pretty sure it is because he can't."

Well said, C3PX.  Thanks for the share, Warbler.  I must say, every moment Dayv wastes with no concrete proof....

Well, fill in the blank.  I think I am done posting here, at least until this thing is put to bed.  Which, from the sound of things, will be never.  You shoulda been in politics, kid.

Posts of that kind, while I understand where they are coming from are pretty pointless.

If someone strongly disbelieves that David has cancer they will not donate, end of story.

On trust those who have donated and not asked for a refund believe Dave's story on trust.

Those who develop strong doubts will ask for a refund (and if they don't get one that's a separate if not related issue).

Unless Dave tells us otherwise or compelling evidence to the contrary is given those who trust Dave on this issue will continue to do so.

Which means for them David has cancer and needs funds quickly.

David needs compelling documentation not to prove his innocence or guilt but to successfully raise the money he needs, not just from readers here but from other organisations as well.

The main focus for David is to get better.

To do that he needs money.

To get the money he needs swiftly enough to be effective he needs appropriate documentation.

Bingowings said:

Posts of that kind, while I understand where they are coming from are pretty pointless.

posts of what kind?  mine?  C3PX's? or Kenobius Prime's?

Bingowings said:

David needs compelling documentation not to prove his innocence or guilt but to successfully raise the money he needs, not just from readers here but from other organisations as well.

The main focus for David is to get better.

To do that he needs money.

To get the money he needs swiftly enough to be effective he needs appropriate documentation.

and what does it say about his guilty or innocence that he has delayed and delayed and has so far failed to produce said documentation when the stakes are so high for him?  

If I had cancer and was in a room where I was constantly being accused of being guilty of deception while dealing with all the other problems I was having, I would leave the room.

I'd probably just get into my bed stick my head under the covers and forget it even if that was to the detriment of my health.

That's what I mean about pointless in fact I'd go futher and say it's worse than pointless, it's actually worryingly dangerous.

The guy needs documentation he needs to take action and posts which constantly talk about guilt and innocence based on the uncorroborated testimony of one person may drive him to inaction and not bothering to listen to sound advice and that is what is worrying me about a lot of the talk here.

I could post all manner of accusations about anyone on this thread but without sound evidence I'd be pissing in the wind.

There is no doubt in my mind that the guy needs help and this constant talk of guilt and innocence is unhelpful.

Bingowings said:

If I had cancer and was in a room where I was constantly being accused of being guilty of deception while dealing with all the other problems I was having, I would leave the room.

I'd probably just get into my bed stick my head under the covers and forget it even if that was to the detriment of my health.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.  

Bingowings said:

The guy needs documentation he needs to take action and posts which constantly talk about guilt and innocence based on the uncorroborated testimony of one person may drive him to inaction and not bothering to listen to sound advice and that is what is worrying me about a lot of the talk here.

so you think this might drive him to inaction even though he knows inaction could lead to him dying?   Sorry but I don't agree.  

I suggest you give the possibility a bit of thought seeing as the point of the thread which you started is helping Dave.

I suppose it is possible, but I'd consider it extremely improbable. 

Well, I am not going to drop the subject.   I want the truth, one way or the other.  Its too important to drop.  

Yoda Is Your Father said:

Exactly.

If you believe him, cool.

If not, that's cool too - drop the subject, move on.

I'm bothered by the idea that only those that believe him should able to still talk about this, while those that don't believe him should just get out. 

Yoda Is Your Father said:

I just don't see the point of the constant demand for proof.  

it is the only way we will learn the truth

Yoda Is Your Father said:

What is exposing Dayv (if he is indeed lying) going to add to your life? 

I don't know that it will add much, but at least I will know the truth.   I think everyone on here has the right to the truth, especially those that donated.  

Yoda Is Your Father said:

What would Yoda say? :)

I don't know, but I am sure he'd want Dayv exposed if he is lying.

Yoda Is Your Father said:

Bingowings said:

Posts of that kind, while I understand where they are coming from are pretty pointless.

If someone strongly disbelieves that David has cancer they will not donate, end of story.

On trust those who have donated and not asked for a refund believe Dave's story on trust.

Those who develop strong doubts will ask for a refund (and if they don't get one that's a separate if not related issue).

Unless Dave tells us otherwise or compelling evidence to the contrary is given those who trust Dave on this issue will continue to do so.

Which means for them David has cancer and needs funds quickly.

David needs compelling documentation not to prove his innocence or guilt but to successfully raise the money he needs, not just from readers here but from other organisations as well.

The main focus for David is to get better.

To do that he needs money.

To get the money he needs swiftly enough to be effective he needs appropriate documentation.

Exactly.

If you believe him, cool.

If not, that's cool too - drop the subject, move on.

Nice economy of words.

Round and round we go.

Unless additional information comes to light, it seems like we're never really going to know for sure.  I don't know that there is a point in continuing this discussion.