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A theory about the coloring on the 04 DVDs.

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I have a theory that the reason for the extreme coloring on the 04 DVDs may have been to make the films look truer to Ralph McQuarrie's original art. Take a look at some McQuarrie art, all which has the blue cast which can be seen prominently on the 04 dvds. I'm not defending the coloring, just pointing out a probable cause.

 

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I doubt it. Computers are stupid. Have you ever had a photo editing program with an auto fix mode? I think they just didn't bother to have an actual person double check if the automated coloring done by machine was correct. Considering, you can use a computer to take the Gout colors and recolor the 2004 versions that way, it's pretty lame they got it so wrong. At least they transferred the 1993 master tapes faithfully. By Lucasfilm standards these days, that's an amazing accomplishment.

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Automated correction and cleanup is a joke unless you have quality check at every step in the digital restoration pipeline.  I think according to Harris the film restoration supervisor.

And When it is done you should have an archival new negative made and a new print backed up on film made.

I personally believe wherever possible in photochemical and frame by frame, by hand restoration in a clean environment so they don't add dirt back in when cleaned off.  Like the 1997 restoration by YCM Labaratory.  Which would be a perfect restore if Lucasfilm did not splice those dreaded cgi shots into the physical negative and therefore destroy film history.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Octorox said:

I have a theory that the reason for the extreme coloring on the 04 DVDs may have been to make the films look truer to Ralph McQuarrie's original art. Take a look at some McQuarrie art, all which has the blue cast which can be seen prominently on the 04 dvds. I'm not defending the coloring, just pointing out a probable cause.

It's an interesting theory (and sharp of you to notice that in the McQuarrie art), but I think you're giving Lucas too much credit. I think his days of doing anything for artistic reasons are long gone. :-P

I'm hearing Lowry has done a fantastic job on the new James Bond blu-rays - I wonder how they managed to do such a botched job on the '04 SW dvds (assuming it wasn't deliberate). I've heard various theories - I wonder if Lucas really requested that "look" for the dvds?

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Pretty sure Lowry just cleans dirt, debris and repairs film damage etc. Lucasfilm decides color and everything else.

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I don't remember where it was mentioned, but there's an article the specifically states that ILM did the colors and just had Lowry clean it.  I think ILM tried to restore it themselves to save money, messed up the colors and hoped Lowry could fix it.

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Or didn't tell Lowry and hoped they wouldn't notice.

 

Or shouldn't it have logically been the other way around...have Lowry clean it first, then ILM would be able to do their coloring to a clean print?

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I am with Octocrox on this one, I think this also accounts for the flipped audio channels on the 04 DVDs, As MCQuarrie's art seems to indicate a world in which the audio should be entirely screwed up. I knew LFL would never lie to us, they were all intentially made creative decisions in order to bring the films closer to Ralphs artwork.

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C3PX said:

I am with Octocrox on this one, I think this also accounts for the flipped audio channels on the 04 DVDs, As MCQuarrie's art seems to indicate a world in which the audio should be entirely screwed up. I knew LFL would never lie to us, they were all intentially made creative decisions in order to bring the films closer to Ralphs artwork.

Oh no, that was just a screw up :P I do think the lower mixing of the music was a creative decision by Ben Burtt though. I doubt the colors were purely a screw up though, because similar decisions about the colors were made on TPM. Plenty of movies nowadays use color tinting for dramatic effect, and I think that was what Lucasfilm was going for, bringing this closer to the "original vision" demonstrated in McQuarrie's artwork. Unfortunately the tinting job doesn't look that great...

 

Also, I doubt Lucas was personally responsible for the coloring. Somebody else probably did it and Lucas just okayed it.

 

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Mielr said:
Octorox said:

I have a theory that the reason for the extreme coloring on the 04 DVDs may have been to make the films look truer to Ralph McQuarrie's original art. Take a look at some McQuarrie art, all which has the blue cast which can be seen prominently on the 04 dvds. I'm not defending the coloring, just pointing out a probable cause.

It's an interesting theory (and sharp of you to notice that in the McQuarrie art), but I think you're giving Lucas too much credit. I think his days of doing anything for artistic reasons are long gone. :-P

I'm hearing Lowry has done a fantastic job on the new James Bond blu-rays - I wonder how they managed to do such a botched job on the '04 SW dvds (assuming it wasn't deliberate). I've heard various theories - I wonder if Lucas really requested that "look" for the dvds?

The Bond films have been meticulously restored to their original glory by Lowry. That's it. Lowry restored the OT and Indy. Nothing else. Lucasfilm then took the OT and desecrated it.

It would be nice to think that the color correction on these discs was actually some type of creative decision, but it still makes me want to puke.

 

 

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Yep the color timing for the 2004 release was absolutely brilliant.  Give Vader a pink Lightsaber, lol.  The badass Lord of the Sith using a pink saber like a pansy.  I guess it sort of makes sense though seeing as the prequels say that is Hayden in the suit,lol.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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doubleofive said:

I don't remember where it was mentioned, but there's an article the specifically states that ILM did the colors and just had Lowry clean it.  I think ILM tried to restore it themselves to save money, messed up the colors and hoped Lowry could fix it.

http://www.apple.com/ca/pro/film/lowry/starwars/index.html

That article mentions that Lucasfilm scanned the negatives, carried out the "re-mastering" (I assume this means the '04 alterations) and the re-colour timing. Then then attempted a cleaning pass through ILM, before deciding to give the job to Lowry.

Lowry received high-definition scans to work with from Lucasfilm. Although it is not clear in the article, it's reasonable to assume that the scans provided contained the tweaks and the new colours.

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Moth3r said:
doubleofive said:

I don't remember where it was mentioned, but there's an article the specifically states that ILM did the colors and just had Lowry clean it.  I think ILM tried to restore it themselves to save money, messed up the colors and hoped Lowry could fix it.

http://www.apple.com/ca/pro/film/lowry/starwars/index.html

That article mentions that Lucasfilm scanned the negatives, carried out the "re-mastering" (I assume this means the '04 alterations) and the re-colour timing. Then then attempted a cleaning pass through ILM, before deciding to give the job to Lowry.

Lowry received high-definition scans to work with from Lucasfilm. Although it is not clear in the article, it's reasonable to assume that the scans provided contained the tweaks and the new colours.

Thanks, that's the article I was referring to.  Why ILM would color-time their own movies so badly, I'll never know.

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Perhaps so that there'll be demand for a to-be-released "colour corrected" version in the future? (Kinda like building bugs into source code so that users will be forced to upgrade...)

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skyjedi2005 said:

Yep the color timing for the 2004 release was absolutely brilliant.  Give Vader a pink Lightsaber, lol.  The badass Lord of the Sith using a pink saber like a pansy.  I guess it sort of makes sense though seeing as the prequels say that is Hayden in the suit,lol.

 

 lol.

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Akwat Kbrana said:

Perhaps so that there'll be demand for a to-be-released "colour corrected" version in the future? (Kinda like building bugs into source code so that users will be forced to upgrade...)

Are you suggesting that perhaps the next editions will have stickers on the front that say "NOW! Color corrected!"

Because that would be hilarious.

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Octorox said:

I have a theory that the reason for the extreme coloring on the 04 DVDs may have been to make the films look truer to Ralph McQuarrie's original art. Take a look at some McQuarrie art, all which has the blue cast which can be seen prominently on the 04 dvds. I'm not defending the coloring, just pointing out a probable cause.

 

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McQuarrie beautiful paintings are only blue on the internets !  Open a good book, such as The Art Of Star Wars (page 87) and you'll see that this particular painting should be grey.

 

 

 

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I think it was a conscious decision, but not for an actually smart reason like that.  Probably to give it an "updated" look...

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I think it is more likely they redid the colors to match bad movies.  Same reason they changed dialogue and added uncessary cgi to wreck good movies to match bad movies.

Star Wars 1977, The Empire Strikes Back 1980.  Return of the Jedi 1983. Good movies.

Phantom Menace 1999, Attack of the Clones 2002, Revenge of the Sith 2005.  Bad movies.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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They had plenty of screw ups with the Bond dvd's as well. Unfortunately, the older dvd's came out in 1999 and are so old that the digital compression is very noticeable in motion. I think some of the Bond special edition dvd's almost look as bad as the Gout.

you can find Bond comparisons and many more here.

http://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1900

 

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

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Knightmessenger said:

They had plenty of screw ups with the Bond dvd's as well. Unfortunately, the older dvd's came out in 1999 and are so old that the digital compression is very noticeable in motion. I think some of the Bond special edition dvd's almost look as bad as the Gout.

you can find Bond comparisons and many more here.

http://www.bulletsnbabesdvd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1900

 

 

In ways, yes. However the Bonds were actually put out in 1999/2000 with some effort into making them acceptable. The GOUT has a softness that comes straight from the laserdisc. The old Bond SEs are the advanced versions of the mid-90s VHS tapes. It really comes down to a metter of preference. Sometimes I'll take softness like a tape or laserdisc out of nostalgia.  The GOUTs work like this for me sometimes.

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I have seen Goldeneye in theaters and we used to have the special edition first printing anamorphic region 1 disc and the aspect ratio is supposed to be wider than it is on the UE.  Lowry either cropped the picture accidentally or they were sent a cropped print either way the lowry release is an abomination least of which they changed the coloring from the theatrical release.

When the director of photography and cameramen are dead, or the directors are no longer around they cannot make sure lowry does not screw their movies up.

The only director approved versions of dr no, from russia with love, are the criterion versions.  Or those derived from the original films masters without color changes.  The special editions are far closer to their theatrical releases than the ultimate editions.  Although on some ultimates the aspect ratio was correct for the first time as well as having the original theatrical mono or stereo tracks.  Between the releases it is a mixed bag not at all really any different than the gout vs the 2004 star wars trilogy im affraid.

The 2004 star wars set and the lowry bonds were produced for modern consumption in mind, they were not produced to be authentic to their original theatrical releases.  In fact these people had the nerve to say these were improved over the originals.

Until Goldeneye gets a fixed release on dvd i won't be buying the UE.  Most likely will skip dvd and go straight to Blu Ray.   This is probably why Goldeneye the most requested and wanted Bond film for Blu has not been released.  They probalbly have to do a new scan and cleanup, from a print that is the correct 2:35:1 aspect ratio.  Not what looks like a cropped widescreen tv print.  Even the Letterbox laserdisc has a wider aspect ratio than the UE.

I would just as soon see a 4k scan done of a theatrical release print or IP with the correct grain structure and colors the film is supposed to have. Not be scrubbed to look like HDvideo by Lowry algorithm and dvnr process. 

I blame the ruining of films on people with their LCD HTDV displays set up for playing video games and the movies that are all shot now on HD Video and have no grain unless added artificially.

You should see what these modern film restorations have done to sleeping beauty and pinochio.  They destroyed the original colors and removed the top layer of detail to smooth away the grain.

Most of Lucas films have been destroyed on dvd by grain removal  which removes the way these movies should look based on the film stocks and lenses used.  THX 1138 and American Graffiti look far too clean, star wars is almost completely ruined.  The Indiana Jones films were scrubbed free of grain and speilberg was unhappy with the process so lowry added the grain back, from what i remember anyway.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I will never understand why people WANT film grain, why not have the clearest picture possible?

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Because when you are dealing with film it is actually a part of the physical structure of the image.  Unlike HD Video.

Movies shot on film look better than ones shot on Hidef video. 

Films should not be altered to look like video, either.

Of course its the directors and producers choice but they should also put the pre ruined version of their films on dvd and blu ray as well.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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You explained to me why filmgrain exists but, not why it shouldnt be removed to make a clearer picture.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain.
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
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