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A modest proposal: Should Lucas make more OT changes?

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Ok, I need to start by saying I am as rabid about the purity of my original trilogy as most of you are. I refuse to buy the DVD's and my laserdiscs will have to be removed from my cold dead hands.

But I have re-thought this of late and I do have one complaint with the OT and it's been brewing since Episode 1 came out.

The lightsaber battles in the originals are a bit sedate compared to what you'd think/hope a jedi duel might look like.
This is most notable in ANH. Obi Wan and Vader fighting it out on the Death Star is so low key, it looks like a couple of geriatrics fighting with canes.
I mean come on. Look at Anakin go in Eps 2 & 3. He is a force of nature with that saber. Now pop in RotJ and see him fight it out with Luke. (Ok you swing, I'll block, now my turn.) Or worse, go watch the afore mentioned Obi Wan/Vader battle. It's sort of sad looking.

Now I'm note sure I'd WANT to see these movies altered more, and I don't even know if it would be POSSIBLE to fix this at this late a date, but would you all want to see the Jedi's actually fight more like the newer trilogy?

Dr. M

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I'd say no.

sure you could do it by CG'ing in some new digital actors to make it more dynamic but think about it.

kenobi's old in ANH and vader is all machine so both of them are well past it. then you've got luke who's had basically no saber training from kenobi, and you don't see yoda giving him any either so I think it fits that at this point, everyones rubbish with lightsabers.

When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

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I dont think the saber fights were actually rubbish, i think they actually show more of a power/control battle. Basically you have 2 masters fighting in each situation and when you have that you get the kind of tension that you see in the battle with each player having a difficult time getting an opening on the other.

for my complete opinion on the lightsaber battles (minus episode III right now) check this thread http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=2251

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Considering the ORIGINAL TRILOGY no longer exists..........

What the hell, I think that I would like to see a new CGI Vader and Old Ben duel it out - bouncing off walls and acting like ninjas on speed - hell yeah

I mean I have all actual laserdiscs and fan transfers so why not change it up again?

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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Rikter: Ninja's On Speed! LMAO!

Dr. M

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Originally posted by: Doctor M
The lightsaber battles in the originals are a bit sedate compared to what you'd think/hope a jedi duel might look like.
This is most notable in ANH. Obi Wan and Vader fighting it out on the Death Star is so low key, it looks like a couple of geriatrics fighting with canes.
I mean come on. Look at Anakin go in Eps 2 & 3. He is a force of nature with that saber. Now pop in RotJ and see him fight it out with Luke. (Ok you swing, I'll block, now my turn.) Or worse, go watch the afore mentioned Obi Wan/Vader battle. It's sort of sad looking.


To put in my two cents on this friendly debate, I'd say it makes sense exactly how it is. Darth Vader is damaged goods- he may have the brute strength to lift people off the floor by their necks, and he can command the force, but his body is not the body that fought in Ep 2&3. The machine parts just aren't that mobile. And that particular hall of the Death Star doesn't appear to have any equipment to rip from the walls with the Force to hurl around. I'm sure that design flaw was corrected for the second one

From Ben's side, as Darth Simon said, it's partly a control battle. Ben isn't young anymore. Even when he was, he wasn't a lightsaber genius, and his years in the desert have accelerated his aging. I know, Yoda shows signs of aging and yet still goes postal on Dooku, but Yoda's goal at that point is outright defeat of Dooku to save Ben and Anakin and stop the Clone War before it starts. Ben's ultimate intent is to distract and stall, with the full knowledge that it's a fight Darth can't win. Perhaps he devotes part of the physical energy he has left into mentally preparing himself for merging with the Force?

And as for Luke in ESB and ROTJ, I would assume that he just hasn't learned lightsaber mastery like Jedi of old. He progressed as far as the "slice-and-dice-the-bar-while-it's-in-the-air" trick (per the novelization and radio drama), but Yoda probably hadn't yet taught him the really advanced stuff, because Luke's role in saving the Jedi requires focus, resistance to the dark side, and persistance, not Windu-like prowess.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

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Then this bring the thought that if Luke is truly a half-assed Jedi (which we must assume by his accelerated training), then there are no more true Jedi.

Luke has no one to teach him further, since there are no others. That is unless spirit Yoda & Obi Wan can train him.

I originally thought (back when RotJ came out), that Luke was a true Jedi Knight and he could now train more (a la all Dark Forces/Jedi Knight video games to follow).

But from what you guys are conceding is that he's not very good, and all he can pass on is his limited knowledge. That's depressing.

Whereas I WANT to believe that Luke was suppose to be as powerful and knowledge in the force by the end of RotJ as Anakin is by Ep 3.
And although his training is accelerated, his ability to master the force so fast is a result of being so strong with the force (stronger than his dad) and the one who REALLY brings balance to the force.

So in the one case we have Yoda 'graduating' a half-assed Jedi and on the other we have Lucas unable to go full out when filming a saber scene.
I think I can live with the latter much better.

Dr. M

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Luke isn't a bad Jedi. he's a really good Jedi. But just because he's good with the force and his emotions, doesn't mean he's great with a light saber. I really wouldn't want the fights changed. There's no real reason, just... I like watching the OT fights way more than the PT fights. Even if the PT fights are super awesome bouncing off walls double bladed cooler deaths chopping off heads...

But yeah, the OT fights are just more fun to watch. Especially the fights in ESB and Jedi.
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The OT fights are better because the viewer is emotionally invested in the characters/story. No amount of bouncing off walls can make up for this aspect, which is clearly missing in the PT.
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This very issue has come up often within my circle of Star Wars buddies. After we saw the saber fight at the end of Ep1, we thought back to EP4 and realized how epic that fight was supposed to be, and how it plays out so anti-climactic now, after seeing how awesome the new saber fights are. It's even worse when you show a friend the OT, and all they've seen is the PT. When it comes time for the saber fights, they usually respond with "That's it?"

But lets be real, the real reason these fights look the way they do is that they are OLD, and expectations were not nearly as high as they are today for that kind of action. Just seeing a lightsaber on the screen was cool enough. But would I want to see it changed? No, probly not. I mean, if the current SE CGI sticks out real bad, imagine how awful a completely digital fight would look in the middle of a 1970's film.

There are many issues like this between the OT and the PT (the ships, the environments, everything pretty much) caused by doing films 20+ years AFTER their originals were released. It's just chalked up to technology, and any attempts to justify the differences is just kinda silly.
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I think that as long as the ORIGINALS eventually are released, CGI the thing to hell if he wants. The fact that there are about 7 TIE Fighters defending the Death Star has always kinda bugged me. Or that the Star Destroyers are chasing the Rebel Runner without any TIE defenses. Or that the data readouts at the Rebel Base for the Death Star plans look like Atari games. While I don't want Obi Wan and Vader bouncing off the walls, I think a few kicks or faster blade swings using CGI and face placements would look great, as a new edition. Not as the defenitive edition, but a new edition.

Alot of the CGI used for the SEs looks EXTREMELY dated now. Why not just replace all the laser blasts and saber blades with new CGI to match the excellent looking ones in the PT? Hell, as long as it was a CARBON COPY, I'd like to see a CGI Yoda, just for fun, not because I think it would look better.

I dunno, it'd be fun to see him tinker with it, but not at the expense of losing the ORIGINALS even further.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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The only changes I would have ever made to the OT, are upgrading the effects (sabers, mattes, touch-up a few explosions, and maybe remaster the soundtrack).

I might also consider a few cut scenes (Biggs/Luke on Yavin) but nothing dramatic.

I can only think of one instance off the top that I would create and insert, a new Palp holo in ESB...but it would have to be much better then the one currently in the DVD's.

It's a shame he didn't think as much of his OT as most did, I would have bent over backwords to try and make the prequels as faithful as possible to the OT, and never would have had to go back and alter anything.
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One other thing, as interesting as it is to see Yoda and the Emperor fight with lightsabers, I never would have gone down that road, I always thought of Yoda and Palpatine dealing with things with their heads and hands, in a way giving them lightsabers ruins their originality, and almost comes off as a cheap method of storytelling.

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If he were to ever add scenes the Star Wars (again of course), I would think a scene in which Vader returns to the Emperor as Dooku does. While we don't need an explanation, it always seemed odd that single manned TIE Fighters weren't supposed to make it out that far into space, but Vader somehow made it back to a Imperial stronghold after spinning out of control.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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He was VADER, maybe they sent someone to search the debris or check out a mayday after they lost contact with the death star.

Dr. M

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If i had the chance i would to change i would....

IV A New Hope

Erase the blood in the cantina.

Add Imperial March.

Add the Emperor dissolving the Senate.

Fix Vader's costume, blacken the eyes, add blinking lights, polish his helmet and correct flipped scenes in his costume.

GREEDO SHOOTS FIRST.

For the love of Christ, fix the lightsabers.

Add a scene with Vader and the Emperor at the end in Coruscant.
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Lucas should recomp the original actors into a totally new cg enviroment now as the 70's/80's production does tend to look shite compared to the prequels. BUT give us the ORIGINAL trilogy as well.

And don't refer to these CG versions as OT, their not!
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No, way!!
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Originally posted by: Jedikev
If i had the chance i would to change i would....

IV A New Hope

GREEDO SHOOTS FIRST.




what?! you must certainly suck eggs. that's the dumbest thing I've ever read.
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The only changes he should make are to bring the movie back to their original brilliance, and no se no 2004 edition no 2007 edition. They should take the and give it to criterion.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I have to agree, it should be digitally restored back to it's brilliance, the only minor changes I would make (if the end result was truly seamless) would be to a few special effects, removing the borders on the super-imposing (look at the foot on speeder bike pedal, tie fighters following the Millennium Falcon inside the death star etc.) and enhancing the lightsaber glow in ANH to match the other two films. Nothing drastic, just enhancing the 'reality' of the film's effects.

In other words restoring the films so things look as 'real' as they did when you first saw them all those years ago, special effects have gotten so good these days that we're spoilt, making special effects in older films look flawed.
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Criterion, sigh, now that's a dream I dare not dream.

Dr. M

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Originally posted by: Citizen
I have to agree, it should be digitally restored back to it's brilliance, the only minor changes I would make (if the end result was truly seamless) would be to a few special effects, removing the borders on the super-imposing (look at the foot on speeder bike pedal, tie fighters following the Millennium Falcon inside the death star etc.) and enhancing the lightsaber glow in ANH to match the other two films. Nothing drastic, just enhancing the 'reality' of the film's effects.
So, basically give it the same treatment that the Indiana Jones trilogy received for its DVD release? Sure, I'd agree with that, and I don't think there would be many complaints from SW fans. I mean, how many Indy fans want to see a DVD version complete with snake reflections?

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Originally posted by: CharlieX
Originally posted by: Jedikev
If i had the chance i would to change i would....

IV A New Hope

GREEDO SHOOTS FIRST.




what?! you must certainly suck eggs. that's the dumbest thing I've ever read.



Ohh shit, sorry i made a stupid mistake.



HAN SHOOTS FIRST!!!

"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Originally posted by: Hardcore Legend
If he were to ever add scenes the Star Wars (again of course), I would think a scene in which Vader returns to the Emperor as Dooku does. While we don't need an explanation, it always seemed odd that single manned TIE Fighters weren't supposed to make it out that far into space, but Vader somehow made it back to a Imperial stronghold after spinning out of control.


According to Star Wars canon, Vader's Custom TIE has its own hyperdrive.

-Poiuyt Man