A discussion/comparison of Lightsaber battles throughout the SW Saga

Author: Darth Simon
Date: 18-May-2005, 8:26 AM

Author: Darth Simon
Time: 18-May-2005 8:26 AM
Post link

I thought a thread dedicated to discussing/analyzing each of the various Lightsaber battles that take place during the 6 movies would be intersting. I know I have my thoughts on each of the battle and would like to see other peoples takes.

The point here is to simply discuss the battles in general, mention your favorite battle and the reasons why its your favorite, analyze the battles as far as style/realism/etc, or anything else you would like to discuss for any of the lightsaber battles. I composed a 'complete' list of the battles, if you feel i neglected or just missed any let me know and Ill add it to the list. The List also will allow us to refer to the battle using the number so we all know what battle we are talking about.

I would like to keep this a spoiler free thread. I realize that Episode III comes out tomorrow and many people here will probably see it, but I will leave ALL battles out until after the weekend which I feel gives anyone that is avoiding spoilers time enough to see the movie. So please wait until I add the battles from episode III before you discuss them.

Episode I
1.1) Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul (Tatooine dessert)
1.2) Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul (Naboo hanger)
1.3) Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul (Naboo hanger)
1.4) Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul (Naboo Hanger)

Epiode II
2.1) Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku
2.2) Anakin vs. Count Dooku
2.3) Yoda vs. Count Dooku

Episode III
3.X) excluded until a few days after release of episode III

Episode IV
4.1) Obi-Wan vs. Darth Vader

Episode V
5.1) Luke vs. Darth Vader

Episode VI
6.1) Luke vs. Darth Vader

-Darth Simon

Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post

Author: Darth Simon
Time: 18-May-2005 8:26 AM
Post link

**My apologies in advance for the long post, if that turns you off of the thread read the first 2 and the last paragraph for a more general idea on the thoughts ive expressed and dont let the lenght keep you from contributing**

My thoughts on the battles First I just want to say that I am currently studying Iaido and Kendo. Both are Japanese Sword Styles and Kendo especially shows its influence on the Lightsaber Battles in the movies, especially in the OT (as Lucas has said he has drawn influence from Japanese culture and may even have mentioned Kendo at one point, though I do not know if he has or not). I mention my study not to say I am an expert on Swordfighting, far from as I've been studying these for not even a year. I do feel however that what I have learned been told allows me to see Tactics/Style that while I have not yet mastered myself would not be apparent to those who have no knowledge of these styles.

For those that dont know, Kendo actually involves fighting/sparing with full armour and bamboo swords. It is a Samurai style and can actually be seen, fairly accurately, in The Last Samurai. Iaido is the art of drawing and cutting and does not actually involve sparing. But actually uses an unsharpened blade (Iaito), and then a sharpened blade (Kensin) when you have reached a certain level of skill, while Kendo is done with a Bamboo sword (Shanai) for the sparring and uses wooden sword for the kata (Bokken)

***If any of my info on Kendo/Iai is incorrect, or my spellings simply wrong, please let me know and ill correct it, I dont claim to be an expert, and probably know/can explain far less about it than i should be able to seeing my involvment/interest in both arts***

1.1) This is a brief battle with Qui-Gon mainly on the defensive. Also, Maul is only using a single blade. Had this laster longer and Qui-Gon not 'bailed' I think Qui-Gon's demise would

1.2) Good battle, in my opinion its pretty realistic, probably because there were real martial artists working on it. Plus the musical score during this battle is one of my favorites. I think this battle really shows Darth Mauls power as he is 'easily' holding his own against 2 Jedi. I think Maul is a better swordsman than both of the Jedi, but that they're teaming up is what is allowing them to 'hold thier own'

1.3) An extension of 1.1, basically Obi-Wan is taken out of the mix, Qui-Gon still holds his own during most of it, Like i said, Maul is a better fighter than Qui-Gon, so its really just a matter of time before Maul defautls him.

1.4) Obi-Wan finally catches up with Maul, but is too late to help Qui-Gon. I dont think Obi-Wan could normally have beat Maul on his own, but I think that he taps into the Dark Side during this battle giving him the needed boost in his skill to 'get the jump on' Darth Maul. However, when Obi-Wan does make his strike Darth Maul is completely taken by suprise which I found totally bogus. First shouldnt he have sensed Obi-Wan using the force to get the saber, Second he's a master Martial Artist, he would have cut down Obi-Wan as soon as he landed if not before, Obi-Wan didnt move fast enough to actually take someone of Darth Maul's skill by suprise. Obviously Obi-Wan's triumph was necessary, but I feel it was somewhat rushed and poorly done. I actually like the idea of Obi-Wan temporarily harnessing the darkside to defeat Maul (the anger/hate from seeing his master slain) and think this could have been expanded into character development for Obi-Wan as part of his change from headstrong to the wise Jedi Master we meet in Episode IV.

2.1) Ok, this battle is decent, up until the point that Obi-Wan gets injured. Now let me share with you a story that got e-mailed out from another Kendo Federation. I did not get the actual email so this is just a short recap. A student was practicing Iaido with a Kensin (the sharpened sword) and during noto (probably spelled wrong, but this is putting the sword back in the sheath or sia (again probably spelled wrong) ) he missed the sia and ended up putting the sword through is arm. Whats the point of this story you ask? REAL SWORDS ARE VERY SHARP. So I would have to imagine that a lightsaber could/would cut someone/something just as easily. So when Obi-Wan got 'nicked' in the arm it probably should have been cut off, not just a little cut. The leg didnt look as bad of a cut, but i would imagine it would have been worse than it was.

2.2) Anakin was pretty good with the 2 swords, this would be harder to control than one for obvious reasons, but if you were practiced in this method (which i dont think anakin really was) it would be more effective. Due to his lack of practice it makes sense that he was disarmed of the one Saber, and his lack of experience cockiness would lead likely lead to the result we saw. Some may say the whole limb cutting off thing is getting pretty old and overused, but I think in this case it was necessary/appropriate. He shows Anakin's start at becoming more machine than man, and also adds to the connection we see in ROTJ when Luke cuts off Vader's arm and we see Luke look at his own cybernetic arm.

2.3) Yoda vs. Dooku, where do I start? As was stated in a blog that was posted in some other thread (either the happy b-day lucas thread or the old people thread) Too much "wasted" movement for people that are supposed to be at the level of swordsmanship that Yoda and Dooku were at. Plus Yoda uses way too much effort in this sequance during his use of the force. While I think this is one fight (the Yoda aspect of it anyway) that a lot of people wanted to see, I think it probably would have been better left out. To show Yoda fight with the Level that he's at it wouldnt have been as 'exciting' to the general audience to see on screen. This is probably skewed by my thinking of the battle in terms of Kendo, and i know there are other styles, but i feel that someone as old/skilled as Yoda would fight with more of a reliance on Form/Quick strikes at openings than jumping around like a piece of flubber.

4.1) Now this is a fight. Someone said something in trooperman's thread about his edits about this fight being terrible, but i have to disagree. As a pure sword fight, knowing this is essentially Kendo being used. This fight was amazing. Neither one, Vader/Kenobi were able to break the others stance/defense. I dont know about you, but everytime i watch this scene i can feel the tension between the two blades...the calculation of every movement by each person. This is probably my favorite fight, though many people might see it as boring and two people basically clashing swords now and then. But taking in context of the Style they are using you can see the mastery each has over their form. I realy cant even explain it, I think if you know basic Kendo you can see what im talking about here and what makes it so great.

5.1) A little more livly than the above fight, but still good, still alot of Kendo influence can be seen here. A bit inconsitant with more activity on Vader's part. But really, Its probably more due to Luke's lack of skill/experience. This leaves him more open to attacks, and more likely to rush into attacks himself, remember, this whole fight was brought about by Luke's rushing in to save his friends despite Yoda & Ben's 'warnings'. He's inexperienced and it shows in his style.

6.1) You can see Luke has gotten better as a swordsman. He still rushes in, and its a more active battle than 4.1 was, but i think thats also partly due to his increase in skill and his increase in confidence. Plus, there were definate dark side vibes coming from luke during much of his attack.

Overall, i think the battles we've seen in the PT so far have more action because thats what people, in general, want and respond to. We see more action in the 2nd and 3rd movies of the OT as well. But

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 18-May-2005 8:42 AM
Post link

"First shouldnt he have sensed Obi-Wan using the force to get the saber"

Force sensing is nowhere near that specific, and I might remind you of Dooku's statement about with Force powers being equal, a duel is the only way to resolve who is the strongest. So, not only are Force use and dueling not considered the same thing, but use of a lightsaber is seen as a greater ability than use of the Force.

"Second he's a master Martial Artist, he would have cut down Obi-Wan as soon as he landed if not before"

It would seem that Ben learns this lesson in ROTS.

I'd have to say that ESB is my favorite duel, both for the choreography and the underlying tension. ANH is my second, and ROTJ is my third.

Although Obi-won/Qui-gon vs. Maul is cool to watch, and the music goes very well with it. Maybe I should try my hand at editing out the cuts to the space battle and Padme, and see how it looks then.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Klingon_Jedi
Time: 18-May-2005 8:45 AM
Post link

Personally, Luke vs Vader ROTJ will always be the battle. Especially when Luke lets his anger get the best of him, the male chorus kicks in, and it's just a powerful moment. You feel the weight of the scene. Son against Father. Son threading dangerously close to becoming that which he fights. It's short, but it pretty much makes the film along with the space battle and unmasking.

Hmm.., MeBeJedi sniped me here. I too like the ESB and TPM duals for the same reasons. They're probably two and three repectively. I'm hoping ROTS can ehco some of that power like I long hoped it would. I'll know in about fourteen hours.

Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

Author: Darth Simon
Time: 18-May-2005 9:21 AM
Post link

Quote
Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
"First shouldnt he have sensed Obi-Wan using the force to get the saber"

Force sensing is nowhere near that specific, and I might remind you of Dooku's statement about with Force powers being equal, a duel is the only way to resolve who is the strongest. So, not only are Force use and dueling not considered the same thing, but use of a lightsaber is seen as a greater ability than use of the Force.

hmmm, I guess I never really agreed with Dooku, Anyone can learn to sword fight, but not everyone can master the force, so how exactly is dueling with lightsabers a greater ability than the use of the force. I mean, when you use a lightsaber in a duel you are Simultaneously using the force. As Qui-Gon told Shmi, 'He sees things before they happen, thats how he appears to have such fast reflexes' This is how ive always looked at lightsaber battles, and the Jedi's ability to deflect blaster bolts, they know where the strike is, or the blaster bolt is before its shot, so they've already moved to block it. Blaster bolts travel pretty quickly so i dont care how fast you are your not gonna block it unless you know where its going. So when it comes to lightsaber battles, there is a lot of force use in the battle itself, because you have to essential 'mask' your moves from your opponent and read their moves. Its basically really advanced reading of your opponent, just like you normally would do in most martial arts, except that you have the Force to assist you.

Quote
Originally posted by: Klingon_Jedi
Personally, Luke vs Vader ROTJ will always be the battle. Especially when Luke lets his anger get the best of him, the male chorus kicks in, and it's just a powerful moment. You feel the weight of the scene. Son against Father. Son threading dangerously close to becoming that which he fights. It's short, but it pretty much makes the film along with the space battle and unmasking.

Hmm.., MeBeJedi sniped me here. I too like the ESB and TPM duals for the same reasons. They're probably two and three repectively. I'm hoping ROTS can ehco some of that power like I long hoped it would. I'll know in about fourteen hours.

Yeah, I have to agree with you about your comments with the ROTJ battle, it is a very powerful scene. But I still like the ANH battle because of the stalemate between the two, you can tell that they are both very good and neither one can really get an opening that they can take advantage of to defeat the other. This opinion of the battle though is heavily based on my Kendo experience and not so much the scene as a whole.

-Darth Simon