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A Date Which Will Live...in Infamy — Page 2

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Yes, to answer bluntly and honesty, I would rather the ENTIRE military personnel of our nation be killed than drop nuclear bombs on CIVILIAN targets. It was a crime against humanity which can not be justified in any manner, not even as a last resort to win a war. Pfft, there have been many wars since then. Shall nukes be the denoument all all wars?

If the choice you presented were between our civilians and their civilians, I would have a different response. But only military targets - including ours - are legitimate in warfare. We "cheated" far worse than Pearl Harbor when we chose to sacrifice the enemy civilians rather than our own military personnel.

If we were unable to prevail any other way ... we should not have prevailed. Why were nukes not necessary in Europe? Why did an invasion work there?


It's very sad that oftentimes the side of "good" is not the mightier side. Perhaps that was the case in WWII, and we were simply not able to honorably defeat the Empire of Japan. I'm sure many reasonably aggrieved parties today cannot honorably defeat the Empire of the United States. Should they resort to defeating us by nuking Los Angeles and Pittsburgh?


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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Yes, to answer bluntly and honesty, I would rather the ENTIRE military personnel of our nation be killed than drop nuclear bombs on CIVILIAN targets.


Then you are insane, sir.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Yes, to answer bluntly and honesty, I would rather the ENTIRE military personnel of our nation be killed than drop nuclear bombs on CIVILIAN targets.

Then you are insane, sir.



You are also a rotten coward. Shame on you. You are only able to hold such shameful opinions because stronger, wiser, and braver men than yourself have protected you, and are protecting you much like a spoiled and ungrateful child. How ironic that you would be willing to sacrifice the very men who allow you to make such shameful hypothetical decisions. You have a child like view of the nature of warfare. We were at war with JAPAN, not the Japanese military. You live in a ridiculous fantasy world.

If we were unable to prevail any other way ... we should not have prevailed.


Go f#@k yourself you phony self righteous jerk.

HARMY RULES

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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
I'm sure many reasonably aggrieved parties today cannot honorably defeat the Empire of the United States. Should they resort to defeating us by nuking Los Angeles and Pittsburgh?


You're a funny little man. To answer your question, most likely. Is that not what they are doing right now? It is likely to happen sooner or later.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Rolling eyes--points to Iran, smiles-----points to Syria smiles---points to Russia, with putin at a desk-Grins-----
ITs all around us people...all around------

BTW-I read yesterday in a S.F. Chronical Article (in the BAY AREA SECTION-) about how it was unjust, a travisty and against the law to have detained Japanesse citizens here in the Bay Area..........I understand the opinion, but to put it in that manor made me taste disgust. Wow.

As my english teacher would say-
"Time for Critical analysis!"

Obi Jeewhyen---
"In any event ... the Japanese military attacked a military target on December 7, 1941. Their "entire country" was no more behind their war effort than our entire country would become. And our final response to that attack was nuclear annihilation of civilian targets. Go ahead and rationalize that all you please. The depravity of rationalizing a nuclear attack on civilians is disgusting ... but if it will make any of you feel better, go right ahead. And sleep well."


WOW!! I'm 14 years old, I must know ALOT MORE ABOUT WWII THAN YOU DO (I can recite the chrono. order of battles in Europe, but the Pacific is not my specialty)-How can I put this blunty..RETARD--The JAPS (I use that term purly in the old sense, I have friends that are Japanesse) at that time we were fighting WERE DIRECT SONS AND GRANDSONS OF THE SAMURAI------IF YOU PAYED ANY ATTENTION IN 7TH GRADE HISTORY (Medival History of cultures all around the world) YOU WOULD KNOW that war was all the Japanesse had at that time. THEIR CULTURE, WAS WAR, and revolved AROUND RELIGION AND PURE HATRED-They believed they were doing the right thing. IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE ATTACK ON PEARL HARBOR: Then you would know they INTENTIONALY strafed hospitals as far as 3 MILES AWAY from Battleship row. They also strafed and destroyed several CIVILIAN buildings, on their way to the sparse airfields in the valleys outside Pearl. About the Nuclear thing...GOD DAMN!!! DO YOU KNOW SOMTHING!
IF WE HAD NOT DROPPED THOSE TWO BOMBS- WE MIGHT NOT BE HERE NOW--WE WOULD HAVE LOST TENS OFF THOUSANDS OF MORE LIVES YOU PRICK! WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, WERE YOU EVER TAUGHT THE CONCEPT OF CAUSE AND EFFECT? OR WERE YOU ONE OF THOSE KIDS WHO DID NOTHING LIKE I SEE EVERYDAY--THEN NOW THAT THEY READ SOME WEIRD BOOK OR SEE A FILM, THINK THEY ARE KNOLEGEABLE!!! YOUR AS LAUGHABLE AS THOSE PEOPLE WHO COME OUT OF SEEING AL GORES "THE INCONVINENT TRUTH" AND THINK THEY ARE SUDDENLY SUPER-EXPERTS ON THE NON-PROVEN FACT OF GLOBAL WARMING!!!!
You don't have any sense do you? (And im 14 years old!) After we dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima, the Japanesse refused to surender. After the second, fearing a possible third, the MILLITARY CONTROLLED GOVERMENT Surendered. Now let me get into that briefly--the Emperor of Japan was ARRESTED before Peral Harbor and the Japanesse Millirary assumed control of the goverment, SUPPORTED BY THE PUBLIC. NEXT:

Obi Jeewhyen---


Funny, I thought our rights were "inalienable," not granted to us by ANYONE. That's the whole point of the United States of America - - recognition of inalienable rights. And please feel free to point me to anywhere in the law where non-citizens have unequal rights to justice. The Bush administration made-up from whole cloth the notion of "enemy combatants" precisely so they could deny their rights to justice, and deny them the treaty rights under the Geneva Conventions. The Supreme Court has twice held that the legal limbo in which the "enemy combatants" have been placed is illegal, and the Bush administration has twice refused to comply with the orders of the highest court in the land. Tell me again how we're not sliding towards totalitarianism.


YOU ARE SUCH A WEIRDO!!
DONT YOU KNOW THAT ALL THOSE "ENEMY COMBATANTS" THAT SHOULD BE TRIED AND SHOT ARE GETTING FIRST CLASS MEALS IN HOTEL LIKE FACILITYS IN GUANTANAMO BAY? THEY GET TO DECIDE WHAT THEIR FED, THEY GET TO PRAY, THEY ARE ALLOWED EVERYTHING BUT TOTAL FREEDOM! EVEN TV!! THEY ARE TREATED BETTER THAN ACTUALL CITIZENS THAT ARE IN JAIL HERE!!! HIGHEST COURT IN THE LAND---BULL...THEY WERE THE HIGHEST SACKS OF NOTHINGS IN THE LAND---HOPEFULLY ROBERTS WILL PUT THINGS BACK TOGETHER...



Hmmm, to what equal treatment do you think I am insisting both societies deserve? I am saying civilians of both societies deserve to be FREE OF ATTACK. That is the equal treatment I support. The Japanese supported their country's war effort, and the Americans supported ours. The Japanese people were no more a legitimate target of war than the American people were.


DO YOU WANT TO KNOW SOMTHING?
After seeing the original footage and being present..many American Generals were RELUCTANT to use the Atomic weapon..but to to they way the war was going--it was the quickest way to end it TO AVOID LOSEING COUNTLESS AMERICAN LIVES!!!
DO YOU THINK THE JAPANESSE WOULD HAVE BEEN "RELUCTANT" TO USE A NUKE ON L.A? I DON'T REALLY THINK SO!

You are suck a prick sir..no, no...YOUR NOT EVEN A SIR---YOUR A TRAITOR! YOU DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY! YOU NEVER HAVE! JUDGEING FROM THE WAY YOU ARE, YOU MIGHT AS WELL MOVE TO RUSSIA (OR THE NEW SOCIALIST REPUBLIC STATE UNDER PUTIN) MABE YOU'LL LIKE GETTING POISONED THERE AFTER "SPEAKING OUT".
You are horrible YOU are the reason why so many men are dieing Iraq-
-You are the reason why soldiers second guess wether to fire or not while in the sights of an enemy
-You are the reason why when the democrats won the terrorists released statements saying "Good," or "now the regime in the U.S. is over"
-Manymore..
One last thing--
YOU SAY WE'RE MOVING tword total totalitarianism!?
HAS YOUR DOOR BEEN KICKED DOWN AND YOUR COMPUTER SEIZED???

ONE LAST COMMENT...THE VERY SAME MEN WHO YOU THINK SHOULD GET FIRED FOR ILLIGAL PRACITICES FROM THE FBI WERE THE VERY SAME ME WHO STOPPED THE GRENADE PLOT IN THE EAST HERE...........THE PLOT (IF YOU HAD NOT HEARD OF IT, BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE ALL YOU WATCH IS CNN) WHERE A MUSLIM CONVERT (YEs!!! HE WAS MUSILM!! WHAT A SURPRISE TO YOU HUH?) WAS GOING TO THROW GRENADES INTO GRABAGE CANS AT A SHOPPING MALL IN NEW YORK.....WOW......
I HAVE NOT MET ONE PERSON LIKE YOU...I HOPE I NEVER WILL. I PROBOBLY WILL BE THROWN INTO JAIL FOR WHAT I WOULD DO TO A PERSON LIKE YOU. YOU ARE SLIME! YOU......
I cannot beleive you.


As various people of my age would say----

"YOU JUST got owned!! By a 14 year old!!"
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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
What a difference 60 years makes. Now it is the United States that is the unprovoked aggressor.

Though we did not "sneak" attack Iraq, we were nevertheless completely unprovoked. (Unless, of course, you count violation of U.N. resolutions as a provocation for invasion and occupation ... in which case, where is our invastion of Israel???).


I am ASHAMED to be an American.



But hardly ashamed to be me. So you can stop all the self-hater bullsh!t before you start. I do not have to identify as an American, and I do not. I am an individual human being, and I will not be identified with any of the myriad dastardly deeds of the U.S. Empire. It may not be as bad as the Japanese Empire was in 1941 .... but a rapist may not be as bad as a murderer, and yet both are bad-to-the-bone.



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My God..You Cannot be American...your completely somthing else..I had neglected to read this...God..I just don;t know what to say.....You bastard......
Wow....
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YOU WANT TO GO ON ABOUT U.S. EMPIRE?
HOW ABOUT BOMBINGS OF INOCENT SERBS IN THE 90'S BE NON OTHER THAN YOU PARTNER CLINTON? WHAT ABOUT THAT!? SO MANY OTHER REASONS IM SURE OTHERS CAN NAME THEM! U.S. EMPIRE..MY GOD.....

BUT THEN AGAIN, IM JUST A MISTAKEN 14 YEAR OLD NOT BROUGHT ON THE PATH OF LIBERASIM, SO I SHOULD GO SIT IN A CORNER DIAGNOSED WITH ADD WITH RITALIN AND DO NOTHING.

MY GOD......
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Hey, WESHALPRESERVE, I understand your reaction--Obi's comments were ridiculous... but posting in most all caps like that isn't helpful. It hinders, not helps, the effectiveness of your message.

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The Geneva Convention applies to people in an organized military fighting a war on behalf of a country. It does not apply to terrorists who are illegal enemy combatants.
People who compare the US now to Nazi Germany need to realize the US has the First Amendment. That is something Nazi Germany did not have and it makes all the difference in the world.
Edit: The US also has the Second Amendment. Nazi Germany banned gun ownership.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Obi, this is almost painful. I greatly respect your views on the Lord of Rings and Star Wars, and now I’m seeing some rather extreme opinions from you. I know I have extreme opinions of my own, but it’s still odd to find myself disagreeing with you so strongly here.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
I cannot equally judge the actions of another era with the morals of our own. Not to say that Lincoln was right, or that slavery wasn't totally and utterly wrong then and now ... but I hope you get my drift that what may have been acceptable yesterday is not so today. Likewise, I hope some terrible things acceptable today are not accepted in the future.

Hmm, interesting perspective. Though I would then contend that your attack on the Bush administration’s actions still seems extreme in light of it.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Funny, I thought our rights were "inalienable," not granted to us by ANYONE. That's the whole point of the United States of America - - recognition of inalienable rights. And please feel free to point me to anywhere in the law where non-citizens have unequal rights to justice.

Nobody is claiming that non-citizens don’t have equal rights as human beings. We are talking about equal protection for those rights. It is an automatic assumption in our collection of laws that non-citizens are not given the same protections. It is the duty of their own government to protect them. This fact hardly means that we are moving towards totalitarianism. It’s been this way since our country was founded. It’s common sense.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
And if war is declared to be permanent, what time limit should be placed on these extraordinary powers?

I don’t see how we’re in a “permanent” war or how the wartime powers our country is currently discussing (such as listening to totally suspicious phone calls) are so extreme that we can’t allow them for ten years or however long the goals of the war take.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
If I wasn't crystal clear that I'm disparaging purposeful human acts of violence against other humans, let me be so now.


I know what you meant, but in a fundamental, physical sense, there is no difference between the violence perpetrated by human beings and the rest of nature. You cannot simply talk about the results of violence in vague terms as if it is all horrible and then condemn the United States for wielding such violence (as you did). The question must be if violence is justified.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
And I would generally agree with that. Hence my point about two nuclear bombs not being a measured response - in my hardly unique view.


There’s nothing unique or extreme about believing the nuclear bomb attacks were uncalled for. It’s easily a minority position among most Americans, but the issue is complicated enough to warrant reasonable disagreement.

What is extreme, however, is to make no moral distinction between the people of Japan and the people of the United States, and to say that an attack on one (during the prosecution of a war) is morally equivalent to an attack on the other.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
The Japanese supported their country's war effort, and the Americans supported ours. The Japanese people were no more a legitimate target of war than the American people were.


Again, I find that revolting. The Japanese people were not innocent. Their actions supported an unjust war. As such an important and powerful part of the war effort, their day-to-day functioning was an important target. I would argue that an attack on them was legitimate. Certainly it would have been more legitimate than an attack on our civilians (seeing as how we were on the just side of the war).

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Well, my salute to TipTup and knightmessenger and the few others who are apparently able to respond without letting their darker and/or immature natures get the better of them.

But that's all I will say on the subject. No need to go further. I've riled up enough people already, and that's not really my goal. Sorry if I disturbed anyone's harmony or equilibrium.
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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Sorry if I disturbed anyone's harmony or equilibrium.


Actually I think you did a lot of good for our harmony--everyone who commented blasted your remarks as well they should. You actually united a bunch of different forum users on an issue. It takes someone truly disconnected from reality to do that.

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I'm just glad there's been an upswing in activity here lately. Definitely seems better than recently.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Sorry if I disturbed anyone's harmony or equilibrium.
Actually I think you did a lot of good for our harmony ....

Well, united in rage is not quite the same as harmony. But perhaps it's another one of those many words that some people need to check Websters on. We can't even hold a discussion if we don't speak the same language. The bizarre meanings given to plain English words around here just astounds me.

Seriously, though, I fault Go-Mer for coming to a site called "originaltrilogy.com" and preaching PT-uber-alis. If this is the general politikal bent here, I'll refrain from posting any of my commie peacenik views from now on.



As a hint, though ... Harmony is when you're not blue in the face, when you don't post tirades in all caps, and when you don't tell people to fvck off. Try breathing deep and thinking of kittens.



Oh, and fantasy-oriented though it might be ... when it comes to war and peace and honor and violence, would it not be appropriate around here to ask WWYD? (what would Yoda do?) That's all. Peacenik Out.








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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen

Oh, and fantasy-oriented though it might be ... when it comes to war and peace and honor and violence, would it not be appropriate around here to ask WWYD? (what would Yoda do?) That's all. Peacenik Out.


Well, around the survivors, a perimeter he'd create. Then he'd scream and bounce around swinging his lightsaber.


Oh, the OT Yoda?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Oh, and fantasy-oriented though it might be ... when it comes to war and peace and honor and violence, would it not be appropriate around here to ask WWYD? (what would Yoda do?) That's all. Peacenik Out.



Thank you for finally acknowledging that your previously stated opinions were based on fantasy. To answer your question Yoda would have been cut to pieces on Omaha Beach. Go hit your hash pipe and retreat to your queer fantasy world. Please keep in mind that whatever brilliant lessons you learn there most often won't apply to the real world. Don't worry about yourself fruitcake, there are still brave young who are willing to cut some throats in order to keep you safe and ignorant. It would be nice if you appreciated their protection, lord knows you're not capable of protecting your swishy self.

HARMY RULES

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Rob, you are the star of my queer fantasy world. PM me a photo, ok?
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This thread is gay.

HARMY RULES

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Yeah, thanks for that. All this talk about macho guys willing to cut some throats for my protection ... well, ya had ta realize that stuff would just be getting me hot.
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You don't take anything seriously do you? You just live in your sick, demented box. I know flameing gays with much more class than you. Disgusting.
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I'm sure you know plenty of flaming gays, mr. ALLCAPS.


Um, what was I supposed to take seriously? Rob's psychotic homophobia? Or was it your vast stores of 14-year-old wisdom?


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I have to honestly plead ignorance in this thread. I'm not especially politically astute, but I admit that I find elements from both points of view that I agree/disagree with, so I don't think anybody is as crazy as the other side wants to believe. But reading this thread last night did inspire me to further research the atomic bombings just to refresh myself on them and see if I couldn't learn anything new. And, yeah, it was hell, especially the part where I read that some Hiroshima survivors escaped from there only to seek refuge in... you guessed it, Nagasaki. Just didn't have luck on their side, did they? The bottom line is, war is hell, and we can debate until we're blue in the face rather an act of war was necessary, beneficial, or what have you. But there really is no definitive answer. We'll never know what the war and its aftermath would have been like had Japan not bombed Pearl Harbor or if we hadn't dropped the bombs on them a few years later.

And WESHALLPRESERVE, please stop with the personal attacks in your arguments. Not only does it destroy any credibility you try to remind us in every other sentence of what an alleged retarded shitface fucker Obi Jeewhyen may or may not be, it also makes you appear younger than you actually are.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Yeah, WESHALLPRESERVE, you might find it helpful to tone down the wild, unfounded attacks. They definitely hurt your case more than help. I'll give you a pass only because you're fourteen and because you seem to clearly idolize Michael Savage (which can't help your demeanor, heh).

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Idolization like that that can't help much. It is better you try to be your own man and hold your own opinions from your own research. We have a lot of Rush Limbaughs (sp?) running around, but it doesn't do them any good because all they are doing is regurgitating Rush. Even if they did come up with something on their own, they have regurgitated Rush so often, it is impossible to distinguish the original thought from the regurgitation. Which is ashame, because they might have something good to say. I have nothing against Rush or Savage, and I even enjoy listening to them from time to time. But extremes are never a good thing. And bias is never a good thing. And I think you will find a little of each in both of them. Original thought, that is th way to go. It makes you much more credible. The insulting thing doesn't help at all either. Calm and cool drives the point home better than extreme over the top enthusiasm ever could.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape