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70mm print of GOUT on Saturday in Academy Theater in CA! — Page 4

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captainsolo said:

I would think that if there had been that clause there would have also have been the use his ideas for the sequel trilogy clause.

Even putting all of that aside, the thing people keep forgetting is that George’s single biggest gripe wasn’t so much about having the unaltered versions out there (although he clearly disliked the idea), it was about paying for a proper remastering job. That’s why we got the GOUT instead of a decent dvd release.

He even said in 2010 or early 2011 that the initial bd release wouldn’t include the unaltereds because they were “too expensive to restore right now.”

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A couple questions about the sound mix, now that we’re on the subject.

Could someone refresh my memory as to the difference with Threepio’s infamous tractor beam line? When it cuts to the animation on the screen do you simply hear him say nothing in one version and “a power failure at one of the terminals will allow the ship to leave” in the other?

My other question is about the monomix and just why it was put together in the first place. Wasn’t the theory about certain theaters needing the monomix debunked or am I remembering wrong? I thought the stereo optical track would’ve been backward compatible with all the existing sound systems in use at the time, mono or otherwise, but I could be wrong.

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 (Edited)

There were issues with Dolby being mono compatible back then. And nobody was sure Dolby was going to become the standard it is today. There were even competing sound systems you’ve probably never hears of such as Sound 360 or Megasound
Even before Dolby, there were issues with stereophonic films being played properly. Stanley Kubrick famously never did another stereo mix for any of his post 2001 films until Eyes Wide Shut in 1999.

The mono was the third and final mix and they spent the most time on it, as they thought it would be the default going forward if Dolby didn’t catch on. There were still a lot of mono theaters well into the 1980’s.

IIRC, Threepio’s line came from the mono and was added in the tweaked home video mixes in the mid '80’s.

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Where were you in '77?

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originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Interesting that the poster refers to the 70mm six-track sound as “stereophonic.” Spielberg also referred to Lawrence of Arabia’s 70mm sound format as such when he recently talked about seeing it in late ‘62 or early ‘63 when he was 16.

As far as I know, Lawrence’s 70mm mix would’ve simply had five tracks behind the screen and one surround track. Star Wars’ 70mm mix would’ve been an early example of the “baby boom” configuration of Left, Center, Right, and Surround, with the left-center and right-center channels handling the bass. I guess you would call this 4.2.

By the time we get to Empire in 1980 I’m assuming the 70mm mix was in 5.1, ditto Jedi in ‘83, but I could be wrong.

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I thought ESB and ROTJ were still the “4.2” six-track?

a trolling bantha

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Cliffs71 said:

As for the print itself… Holy Jeebus! I can’t imagine it looked any better opening day of any of the 70mm re-releases… The bigger news to me though is just the knowledge that this exists in the first place and therefore it IS possible should that occasion ever happen.

That’s my take away as well. It’s wonderful that an original version was seen and is in excellent condition. Also nice to think there may be more viewings. Particularly since there have been a few in other theaters lately. It’s either a big coincidence or someone is testing the water to gauge non-nerd-board interest in the original film.

Whatever the reason, we now have a well-documented case of there being a prime candidate for a proper home release.

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ChainsawAsh said:

I thought ESB and ROTJ were still the “4.2” six-track?

Maybe someone can chime in and clarify this.

Apocalypse Now was the first movie to be mixed in 5.1 when it was released in August of ‘79, less than a year before Empire’s release. It’s possible they kept mixing Empire and Jedi in the older 4.2 configuration since the 5.1 format hadn’t become the standard yet.

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Well, if they keep playing it in theaters, it won’t be long before it is no longer a suitable source for capture. The 70mm print of 2001 that toured theaters in 2001 looked pristine at its opening at the Castro theater in San Francisco, but was trashed by about a year later.

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Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Well, if they keep playing it in theaters, it won’t be long before it is no longer a suitable source for capture. The 70mm print of 2001 that toured theaters in 2001 looked pristine at its opening at the Castro theater in San Francisco, but was trashed by about a year later.

I thought about that also, but didn’t want to harsh the buzz. 😕

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Dolby 70mm incorporated the old Todd AO system for 70mm playback of Left, screen left, center, screen right, right, mono surround.
Instead of using the screen left and right channels as mixes were done from a LCRS four track master-Dolby took the low end and specifically mixed it to come out of the unused two screen channels and eventually some theaters moved placements to become in effect the first subwoofer in a modern theater context. It’s sort of confusing as to how these tracks should be presented in modern codec to be accurate: 4.0, 4.1 or 4.2.
This was done partially to compete against Sensurround which was attempting a comeback and other systems as mentioned above like Fox’s own Sound360 and Warner’s Megasound which was supposed to have some pretty impressive low end.

Apocalypse Now in 1979 was the first release to have split stereo surrounds but only in its 70mm version. This is why it is said to be the first 5.1 track in theory. Superman tested this a year prior but that mix was not released.

Mono was still dominant and it was not thought that Dolby would be widely accepted especially since there had been many format to come and go quickly. Stereo was still not very well utilized and most theaters would do it badly. That’s why Kubrick stuck with mono. On ESB Ben Burtt and others specifically mixed the Dolby stereo to have all the relevant information in the main two channels so that if anything went out you could still enjoy the film and not lose anything. Dolby Stereo was an unknown factor and not expected to take off like it did. Thus the mono mix was done last for the general main release and intended as the final definitive mix.

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Fang Zei said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I thought ESB and ROTJ were still the “4.2” six-track?

Maybe someone can chime in and clarify this.

Apocalypse Now was the first movie to be mixed in 5.1 when it was released in August of ‘79, less than a year before Empire’s release. It’s possible they kept mixing Empire and Jedi in the older 4.2 configuration since the 5.1 format hadn’t become the standard yet.

ESB & ROTJ 70mm both had the 6 track dolby stereo mix


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ESB and RotJ were obviously presented with six-track sound on their 70mm prints, yes, but what I was wondering about was whether they were in the 5.1 configuration of Apocalypse Now or the 4.2 of Star Wars ‘77.

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Someone brought this up on another site and I suppose there is a good point with this. Yes it is a good sign that Lucas gave the OK for this showing but at the same time needing his ok to showing the original version publicly may still be a sign that the issue of getting the originals restored and released on video is still an issue that needs ok’ing from the former head honcho.

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Yeah, but Kathleen Kennedy would probably just “ask for his permission” to include a nicely remastered OOT. It probably still wouldn’t look as good as George’s preferred version if, for example, this newest iteration of the SE is from the camera negative and the OOT is from seps or some other source. So George wouldn’t have to worry about the OOT being presented in superior quality to his preferred version. But even if, let’s say, they were at almost equal quality, with both versions using as much of the o-neg as possible, I still don’t know why George would care at this point.

Just as long as, y’know, they “ask his permission first.”

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All Dolby 70mm shows were mono surround unless specifically mixed for split surrounds, which only became more and more common in the mid to late 80’s-and even then was rarely used. in70mm.com has an excellent list by year that indicates where it is known that titles came in split surround on 70mm prints.

So you either have 4.1 or 5.1 technically speaking in modern channel designations, and a second sub track would really only mirror the already existing sub track. ESB and ROTJ were Dolby 70mm with mono surround.

I too think the asking was more of a formality as I don’t see how there would be any legality binding it to George’s say so since he pretty much signed over everything.

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captainsolo said:

I too think the asking was more of a formality as I don’t see how there would be any legality binding it to George’s say so since he pretty much signed over everything.

A formality, yes, but I think it’s one they intend to carry forward for the foreseeable future. Lucasfilm doesn’t want to alienate their namesake, and Disney wants to stay on good enough terms with George that he’s willing to, say, come out and give his blessing at the opening of their new theme park land.

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Not to mention the screening was to compare and contrast visual effects aspects of the original trilogy era to the effects in Rogue One. Given the Special Edition only has about 30-40% of the original work intact of those present at the screening, this was likely why George needed some convincing to allow the screening of the original film.

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Cliffs71 said:

As for the print itself… Holy Jeebus! I can’t imagine it looked any better opening day of any of the 70mm re-releases. It was gorgeous and other than that 2 seconds of damage (which, BTW, didn’t require any frames to be lost to repair and didn’t affect the sound), the print was pretty immaculate. Dykstra did say there was considerable effort of the part of many to get Lucas’s approval, so I sadly wouldn’t hold out much hope that this print suddenly finds its way into more and more screenings. I think it could be seen again, but my gut tells me (to quote Indy) only on special occasions. The bigger news to me though is just the knowledge that this exists in the first place and therefore it IS possible should that occasion ever happen.

It is not all that surprising that this 70mm version exists more so what is weirder is that it could have been used and scanned ages ago and released Instead of the GOUT or alongside the SE.

Simply Scanning this would have probably yielded better results than the Digital Restoration work for 2004 and onwards?

I think it’s strange that this could not have been used as a source for a Restoration. Ok it’s a Blowup but it’s still good.

Is this something that could have been found recently or forgotten about?

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Ronster said:

Is this something that could have been found recently or forgotten about?

It seems to be explained here:

Cliffs71 said:

I was there as well. My understanding (unless I totally misunderstood what Dykstra said) was that this print was a 70mm UK print struck in the early 90s for one off special screenings, such as charity events. It was damaged the first time it was run with a decent 2’ / 2 second tear during the explosion of the Death Star (which is in the MIDDLE of the final reel). It was immediately pulled from circulation and left gathering dust, never to be run again for 25 or so years. Dykstra made it sound like the Academy projectionist is the one that actually repaired the damage which allowed it to be shown again (which might also explain why it was a last minute announce/addition to the programming).

As for the print itself… Holy Jeebus! I can’t imagine it looked any better opening day of any of the 70mm re-releases. It was gorgeous and other than that 2 seconds of damage (which, BTW, didn’t require any frames to be lost to repair and didn’t affect the sound), the print was pretty immaculate. Dykstra did say there was considerable effort of the part of many to get Lucas’s approval, so I sadly wouldn’t hold out much hope that this print suddenly finds its way into more and more screenings. I think it could be seen again, but my gut tells me (to quote Indy) only on special occasions. The bigger news to me though is just the knowledge that this exists in the first place and therefore it IS possible should that occasion ever happen.

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I know I read that, but it does not really confirm anything but…

“Dykstra made it sound like the Academy projectionist is the one that actually repaired the damage which allowed it to be shown again (which might also explain why it was a last minute announce/addition to the programming).”

If this was the case then it should be scanned and archived immediately.

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Ronster said:

I know I read that, but it does not really confirm anything but…

“Dykstra made it sound like the Academy projectionist is the one that actually repaired the damage which allowed it to be shown again (which might also explain why it was a last minute announce/addition to the programming).”

If this was the case then it should be scanned and archived immediately.

Good idea. Someone here will get right on that. I’m sure the Academy will lend anyone this print that none of us knew about but has existed for 2 decades.