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70 mm print of the Empire Strikes Back Differences — Page 3

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You are right Sluggo! I checked the dvd again and damn! that was hard to see, the restoration seems to have fucked up this too. Sorry for bumpin this tread with misinformation.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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No worries.  The 70mm is one film I never mind researching.

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 (Edited)

Unless you know of some collector hoarding a copy of the 70mm of empire you will never see it again.

Very few had the luxury or good fortune to see it.  And now thanks to Lucas you never will.

Because even if some film archive has a copy and wants to screen it they cannot by some strange Law that forces them to show the 1997 special edition.

I would not be in the least bit surprised if the original magnetic elments are completely deteriorated on the soundtracks in Lucas vault, or that he hunted down and had the remaining prints destroyed.

The 70mm of the special edition apparently was just a blow up and not specail in the least except for having a new six channel dts mix.  Neither are on dvd and are also lost to time.

I wonder what the difference between that and the 5.1 ac3 on the special edition laserdiscs.

I remember the bass rumbled your seat in the theater.

I remember very clearly an immersive 3D sound environment where you fealt like you were actually in the middle of the dogfight as Luke attacks the death star.

Then you get the 2004 redone audio and none of the above are to be heard.  really no mix at all.  The sound levels on the sound effects are off the scale and the music dialed way down in swapped surround channels.  The dialogue is also almost muffled.  Ben Burtt's new mix, is a giant stinking turd.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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skyjedi2005 said:

Unless you know of some collector hoarding a copy of the 70mm of empire you will never see it again.

 

 This is sadly probably correct.  The best we would do is a 'best guess' reconstruction.  The audio would need to be reconstructed and some visual elements would need to be re-composited.  Not an impossible task to get fake 70mm done, but it would only be a guess at best.  

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70mm reels of Star Wars have popped up on Ebay in the past, so you never know! ;)

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

I don't know if this could be a 70mm/35mm visual-difference as there was many unfinished shots in the earlier trailers, but this fx sequence in the original theatrical trailer is a little different from the finished film.

Trailer footage above with the same frame on GOUT footage below:

                        

 

 

                       

                       

                       

                       

As you can see, the two snowspeeders was composited into the scene much earlier in the trailer-footage and they don't have any laser blasts animated to them. I don't have Puggo's super-8 version to check against, it's probably just an unfinished shot but it could be worth checking.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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One thing I recall is the line "Then I'll see you in hell." read just like that in any of the recent releases but originally I recall a huge emphasis on "hell", "Then I'll see you in HELLL!!!!!" Is that a known difference? Was it just the acoustics of the theater and speaker system making it sound more emphasized when it's always been the same or did Lucas later try to tame it down?

 

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msycamore said:

I don't know if this could be a 70mm/35mm visual-difference as there was many unfinished shots in the earlier trailers, but this fx sequence in the original theatrical trailer is a little different from the finished film.

...         

As you can see, the two snowspeeders was composited into the scene much earlier in the trailer-footage and they don't have any laser blasts animated to them. I don't have Puggo's super-8 version to check against, it's probably just an unfinished shot but it could be worth checking.

I'll throw on the Puggo edition and see what it says sometime this weekend.

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Did you ever check the super-8, Sluggo? I'm curious.

Anyway, hopefully we can get some of the questions answered about the 70mm cut when Rinzler's book comes out in a few weeks.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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gah!  Forgot all about it.  This weekend is pretty quiet.  I'll take a look at them between commercials.

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You don't have to anymore ;) I was able to check it myself. The super-8 have the same compositing as in the GOUT. Just unique trailer footage or a small chance the super-8 used a 35mm filmsource in this sequence.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Geh.  Thanks for looking into that.  I've got the disc on my shelf waiting to be viewed.  On top of that box I am meaning to mail to DarkJedi.

So the top pan and scan pictures are from the trailer and the lower widescreen pics from the GOUT?

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Sluggo said:

Geh.  Thanks for looking into that.  I've got the disc on my shelf waiting to be viewed.  On top of that box I am meaning to mail to DarkJedi.

 

No problem, Puggo's preservation is a cool little gem to own anyway.

Sluggo said:

So the top pan and scan pictures are from the trailer and the lower widescreen pics from the GOUT?

Yes, that is correct.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Can we draw any conclusions from this?  I don't think so in this case.  The 70MM version seems to correlate with the 8MM quite frequently, but I don't know if it always does.  That weird compositing from that trailer doesn't reflect any rumors of the differences of the 70MM, but it still may be a remnant of an earlier composite that was redone and used for the 35MM. 

 

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Recently discussed here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Humdinger-Analysis-Thread-Glitch-Cryptography-or-Steganography/post/550182/#TopicPost550182 decided to move it here where it's more appropriate.

msycamore said:

msycamore said:

Harmy said:

Not true, when you look at these 70mm cell scans, there's actually more picture information on the sides than there is in the 2004 SE, which is the least cropped transfer to date.

It seems to me that those could be 35mm, the reason behind my thinking is that this shot wasn't in the 70mm version:

Baronlando said:

It could have been in the 1981 or 82 releases though, right?

Yeah, I have always wondered if the early cut of Empire was on all 70mm prints, even when screened as late as 1985, but to make new 70mm prints for the re-releases just to have the film updated with the late changes seen in the 35mm- version were probably to costly and it would also have been necessary to create a new six-track mix, so I very much doubt it.

I also find this interesting, "The Empire Strikes Back" opened with a modest number of initial wave engagements, reportedly 127, it appears that with the exception of a few drive-in bookings, all of the first-wave engagements were in the deluxe 70mm format. Additional 70mm engagements were added during the "expansion wave" releases throughout the summer of 1980.

from: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/empire/index.htm

Does that mean that a few 35mm prints were produced of the early cut, or was it perhaps 16mm prints on those drive-ins?

TServo2049 said:

16mm at drive-ins? No way. They would have been 35mm, just like any other regular cinema.

I have no idea if those 35mm prints were of the early cut, or if all 35mm prints were of the more familiar version. Didn't 70mm prints have a longer lead time due to the extra work? (The first Star Wars would have been an exception; I've heard Ben Burtt talk about how the Dolby Stereo mix had to be rushed out so that it could be tested for the wide rollout of the system, so I'm guessing that the 35mm prints were made first in that case.)

I'm not sure how we'd be able to conclusively figure it out. On TrekBBS, I once asked a similar question, if any early 35mm prints of Star Trek II just said "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan" like the 70mm prints did; I never got an answer on that.

Very interesting, those drive-in prints should definitely have been the early cut, the film was already in theaters when ILM started to work on the revised final shots.

TServo2049 said:

As for that frame, I think it's 70mm. My guess would be that the later prints made in summer '80 were of the revised version. There's no reason why this second wave couldn't have been derived from the "fixed" version.

Yeah now when I think about it, I agree that it must have been the logical thing to do, it's unfortunate that so little information exists on this matter.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

Yeah these big market drive-ins on opening day would definitely be 35mm http://faqs.starwarsmovieposter.com/images/usesbad.jpg

I would think for the kind of wide, national re-release Empire had in 81/82 they would have had to make some new prints, the ones from May of '80 would be pretty beat up by then, (playing around the clock in some venues that first week or more). And they would have made new 70blowups from the same source as the 35s, an internegative I guess? Which would have been the more standard EMPIRE by then.

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I'm assuming that frame came from one of those limited-edition 70mm film cells that were sold under license from Lucasfilm. It's anybody's guess just which 70mm print it was from. They claim to be from a "master print taken from the original internegative," and judging from the lack of any substantial dirt or damage, I'm wondering if these were backup prints in the LFL archives that weren't actually screened.

Looking at images of the cells currently available on eBay, it's interesting to note that none of the ANH cells have the black mag stripes on the ends; the 2.5mm to the left and right of the perforations are clear. Not sure if it's because the striping had flaked off, or if the print was never striped in the first place (would they have gone through the trouble of making a new 70mm print in the 90s - unstriped since it wasn't meant to be screened - just to make these cells?)

ESB, however, does have the stripes; one of the cells currently on eBay even has a visible "EASTMAN" stamp. Judging by the quality of the colors on the ESB cells, even today, could they possibly be from an LPP print made for the '85 reissue? (Were there ever any LPP 70mm prints made of any of the trilogy?)

If they were from a print that late, it wouldn't be a surprise that it was the revised edit...

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I find this very fascinating, also makes you wonder how the audio mixes were treated, I have always thought of this first cut as The 70mm version instead of just an early cut of the film.

If this was the case, it must mean that a total of four audio tracks were produced for Empire albeit all of them very similar in content, a 70mm six-track and a regular Dolby Stereo for the few 35mm prints that were made of the original release cut, and the same procedure for the "Final cut".

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Interesting . . .

Sort of makes me wonder if the 1993 mix of ESB could actually be an exact reflection of a possible 'revised' 70mm version.  It is said to have been taken from a 4-track master with non-limited dynamic range, and since it matches up with the 35mm edit of the film it seems possible that this is where that might have come from.  This 4-track master cannot be an earlier version of the 35mm mix itself, because there are a few minor differences from that, most noticeably the missing snowspeeder crash sound, and also a few changes in blaster and explosion levels during the battle.

So . . . could it be?  Was the snowspeeder sound actually missing from later 70mm theatrical prints, and this error got carried over to the 1993 version?  Whether true or not it's still an unintentional mistake, of course, but it's a possibility worth considering.

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hairy_hen said:

Interesting . . .

Sort of makes me wonder if the 1993 mix of ESB could actually be an exact reflection of a possible 'revised' 70mm version.  It is said to have been taken from a 4-track master with non-limited dynamic range, and since it matches up with the 35mm edit of the film it seems possible that this is where that might have come from.  This 4-track master cannot be an earlier version of the 35mm mix itself, because there are a few minor differences from that, most noticeably the missing snowspeeder crash sound, and also a few changes in blaster and explosion levels during the battle.

You read my mind, that was exactly my thoughts as well, for those interested in the making of those Definitive Collection LD audio tracks, this is a must read: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/DC-amp-Faces-Original-audio-sources/post/220622/#TopicPost220622

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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The original ending of Empire as seen on the 70mm prints: http://www.sendspace.com/file/4e8899

It's just a quick and dirty sync and editing job I did for fun way back when morgands1 posted his recording, but it's kind of nice to see how it played than just hear it.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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"The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a closeup of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending it's arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing."

This might be part of that footage that was replaced with Leia, Han and Threepio observing that Mike Matessino described in FSM:

^ This unique footage appeared in the '79 teaser trailer, the one with the Harrison Ford narration.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

Why do people always say that's Harrison's voice? It really doesn't sound like him to me.

But you could be right about that shot. I still can't figure out why/how the Reel 1 used for the film cells was the revised version, but the Reel 6 was the original. (For those who don't know, I sighted a 70mm cell on eBay where Luke was about to fall off the weathervane, and it was the version seen in the Super 8 with Luke in the center and no radar dish.)