633 Squadron

I'm working on a project dealing with the influences Lucas used to build Star Wars from and I've been doing some research on the matter for a little while now.

One of the films that keeps getting brought up as having been a heavy influence on the ending is 633 Squadron. Often, but not always, mentioned in the same breath as Dambusters. In fact, Lucas himself is often cited as having mentioned it.

However, I haven't been able to find a single source for any such quote. The only reference I've been able to find from any official source is from Kurtz.

633 Squadron is little more than a poor knock-off of Dambusters, both conceptually and structurally, and with the exception of there being a very specific area that needs to be struck with 'Earthquake bombs', whereas in Dambusters it's more a matter of distance to target (which given that the trench on the Deathstar is narrow and linear, jives well with Star Wars anyway), the two movies share more than they differ; at least in terms of how they might have influenced Star Wars.

So what I'm saying is, 633 Squadron was 'just another' one of the fifty or so movies in the archive; it was nothing special.

I'm wondering if anyone has anything to add? Have I missed a Lucas quote? Is there something I'm not seeing?

PS: There is one thing though, which 633 Squadron does different from Dambusters. A separate team on the ground set out to clear the way for the attacking planes by attacking and sabotaging the fjord defences. In a forest setting. Where they fall into an ambush. It sounds familiar alright, but not for Episode IV.

> I've been collecting all the movie and television programs which either were inspirations for or referenced SW movies and watched 633 recently.

Maybe we should compare notes; I've been doing much of the same. Mail me at heilemann@gmail.com if you're interested, I can show you some of what I'm working on.

> Rereading my notes, there are terms which were reused: wing commander, blue leader, Hobbie.

Ah yes, those I had overlooked. In Dambusters, even though they use other lines, they just use 'leader' to address. Good point.

> A few lines "hold on this might be a little rough", "critically important operation, that's all gentleman, except good luck". (MTFBWY-like)

I have that in my briefing intercut actually; it's not in Dambusters and it is quite reminiscient of the ending of the briefing in ANH.

> Similar scene sequence, briefing before battle for instance.

Also in Dambusters.

> But for the most part this is probably one of the films GL cut-up to create his Death Star mock-up. For instance at 57:20 there's a shot of a gun whose turrets pumps in and out, cockpit shots 14:25, formation breaks off and attacks 21:45.  So shot framing and battle sequencing are probably some of the things learned from this film.

Well it's not so much that I want to disregard it entirely; Kurtz mentioned it after all. But I feel that its signifigance is wastly overrated, and has been tired inexorably to the film whereever you look. I dare you to find a single mention of 633 Squadron that doesn't always mention Star Wars; and personally I don't find the connection to be quite *that* strong.

633 Squad was actually used as temp footage placeholders for the space battles before the ILM comps were done, IIRC.

Kurtz confirms as much in an interview I'm using. But from there to it being a 'primary' influence... I don't know if I'm altogether convinced. I think you're probably right that it further ingrained the idea, and perhaps it even triggered the idea of fighters attacking the bombers, something that isn't present in Dambusters.

zombie84 said:

Maybe. But when he was in preproduction in England he bought all this expensive video equipment that he used to do tape-to-tape video editing using old war films that he used to show people and ILM guys how the scenes would cut together, for both the "here they come" sequence and the end battle.

Then when he was in Tunisia someone broke into the house he was renting and stole all the video equipment. I don't think the tapes he made have ever been publically seen, its possible that they don't exist anymore for one reason or another. Maybe he did like what I did for Return of the Jedi in 1989 and recorded Super Dave Osbourne over it. :p

But yes, maybe they were able to get 35mm prints to use for the workprint. Also, the workprint is black and white for all footage, including the live action original footage which obviously was filmed in colour. It was all printed to black and white for editorial use because it was cheaper, so probably 633 Squad would have been too.

Correct the John Jympson rough cut exists in black and white.  While the dailies exist as color footage.  Who knows how  much fading has happened after all this time though, i would imagine it was the same bad eastman kodak that eventually was phased out.