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4K83 Released — Page 9

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oohteedee said:

Just keep in mind that when the 4K83 optical audio was being synced to the print it was discovered that the actual GOUT audio isn’t properly synced to the GOUT video. Just as they screwed up and missed two film frames they also screwed up syncing the audio.

So really if you’re going to GOUT sync 4K83 you should properly GOUT sync all the GOUT audio tracks too since they are not even synced properly to the GOUT video.

The print audio can be accurately synced to the print since any audio dropouts you hear can actually be seen as to why they dropout in the optical audio track on the left side of the print. The audio dropouts are at splices in the optical audio track on the print.

I’m not sure anyone ever synced to the GOUT audio on purpose (the video frames are the reference, not the audio), but if so, sure. Some of the GOUT foreign language tracks aren’t even synced exactly to the GOUT English audio. It’s more likely every audio track has idiosyncratic sync issues, but none as big as the difference between GOUT and 4K83.

Not to worry, though, I’ll be using hairy_hen’s newly synced audio for the main English track, so the English sync will be just as good as 4K83.

The GOUT audio was always assumed to be correct but it’s not.

I don’t recall that ever being the case. I’d say it’s fairer to say people were surprised at how badly off it was, but they weren’t surprised at all that it was off. It’s Lucasfilm for goodness sake.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Discostu said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I plan to release a GOUT-synced 4K83 to address all the sync issues with not only dubs, but any other GOUT-synced audio tracks (Laserdisc rips, in-theatre recordings, etc) that people may have collected over the last 26 years since the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs came out and became the primary thing to sync to.

Awesome!

Yep, I’ll share more once the thing’s available.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Just got both the 4k DNR versions of 4k77 & 4k83

4k83 looked a touch soft to me in comparison to 4k77. I checked the data on my set and noticed that 4k83 was sending 3840x1624 instead of 3840x2160.

Anyone know the reason for that?

Thanks

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Sounds like you didn’t get an official encode, but someone else’s re-encode? What is the file name exactly?

a trolling bantha

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Ah, okay. I wasn’t sure if there was an attempt being made at UHD BR compatibility or not (I assume that requires hardcoded letterboxing like standard BRs but I’m not sure).

a trolling bantha

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Discostu said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I plan to release a GOUT-synced 4K83 to address all the sync issues with not only dubs, but any other GOUT-synced audio tracks (Laserdisc rips, in-theatre recordings, etc) that people may have collected over the last 26 years since the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs came out and became the primary thing to sync to.

Awesome!

Okay, this is done. Sorry it was delayed a little extra due to the impending release of one of my other projects. In a nutshell, this is what it is:

GOUT-synced 4K83 with the 1.1 color correction, at 1080p (MKV format), using an encoding and filesize that could easily be used to create a BD25. Includes one of each major English track variant (83 6-channel, stereo, mono, and 93 stereo) in DTS-MA, defaulting to 6-channel 83 (which is just hairy_hen’s new track for 4K83, GOUT-synced). Also includes all of the dubs in my personal dub collection (Dolby Digital), which is big but not exhaustive. Also includes 32 subtitle tracks (only 32 to avoid player compatibility issues) chosen to be most useful for most American, Western European, and Japanese audiences. The subtitle tracks are from the upcoming Project Threepio 11.0, which will be available soon, and you can download that or the current version if you need additional subtitle options.

The purpose of this release is to have a version that “just works” for any mix-and-match purposes without having to think a lot about it, the main beneficiaries likely to be people who watch with their favorite dubs, but it could work with any of the random tracks collectors have been accumulating since the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs were released in 1993 and created this long-lasting fan frame standard we now call GOUT.

PM me for a link if you’d like it. I’m checking with admins right now about putting it on MySpleen (I’m also a complete torrent novice, so there may be technical delays)

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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 (Edited)

I understand that people refuse to let go of the past and reject progress which is why you feel compelled to do this.

I am not one of those. The GOUT is flawed in many ways and should be retired. I reject the GOUT as the standard and only accept the complete film as originally created as the standard.

4K83 preserves the complete film as it would have been seen (in a perfect scenario) in theaters. Why would we settle for anything less than the complete original film.

The 5.1 track should not be the default track. That track is only recommended for playing back on a 5.1 system, as per hairy_hen. It does not fold down properly to a 2.0 system. Listening to it on a 2.0 system it sounds off. The 2.0 track should be the default because of that.

While the GOUT is missing two frames and I’ll assume trimming those is all you did to GOUT sync it, the actual GOUT audio is not even synced properly to the GOUT video. So by trimming those two frames you are providing a version where the audio is out of sync as the GOUT always has been.

The effort you put in to creating this version would have been better spent syncing the audio tracks you have to 4K83 which is the complete film as originally created.

If Disney releases the film in it’s complete and original form sometime soon will you trim that too to fit a flawed and incomplete standard? I sure hope not.

this is just my opinion on the matter of course

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CatBus said:

Discostu said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I plan to release a GOUT-synced 4K83 to address all the sync issues with not only dubs, but any other GOUT-synced audio tracks (Laserdisc rips, in-theatre recordings, etc) that people may have collected over the last 26 years since the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs came out and became the primary thing to sync to.

Awesome!

Okay, this is done. Sorry it was delayed a little extra due to the impending release of one of my other projects. In a nutshell, this is what it is:

GOUT-synced 4K83 with the 1.1 color correction, at 1080p (MKV format), using an encoding and filesize that could easily be used to create a BD25. Includes one of each major English track variant (83 6-channel, stereo, mono, and 93 stereo) in DTS-MA, defaulting to 6-channel 83 (which is just hairy_hen’s new track for 4K83, GOUT-synced). Also includes all of the dubs in my personal dub collection (Dolby Digital), which is big but not exhaustive. Also includes 32 subtitle tracks (only 32 to avoid player compatibility issues) chosen to be most useful for most American, Western European, and Japanese audiences. The subtitle tracks are from the upcoming Project Threepio 11.0, which will be available soon, and you can download that or the current version if you need additional subtitle options.

The purpose of this release is to have a version that “just works” for any mix-and-match purposes without having to think a lot about it, the main beneficiaries likely to be people who watch with their favorite dubs, but it could work with any of the random tracks collectors have been accumulating since the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs were released in 1993 and created this long-lasting fan frame standard we now call GOUT.

PM me for a link if you’d like it. I’m checking with admins right now about putting it on MySpleen (I’m also a complete torrent novice, so there may be technical delays)

I’ll take a different approach on how to respond to someone politely:

Thanks, Catbus.

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towne32 said:

CatBus said:

Discostu said:

CatBus said:

FWIW, I plan to release a GOUT-synced 4K83 to address all the sync issues with not only dubs, but any other GOUT-synced audio tracks (Laserdisc rips, in-theatre recordings, etc) that people may have collected over the last 26 years since the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs came out and became the primary thing to sync to.

Awesome!

Okay, this is done. Sorry it was delayed a little extra due to the impending release of one of my other projects. In a nutshell, this is what it is:

GOUT-synced 4K83 with the 1.1 color correction, at 1080p (MKV format), using an encoding and filesize that could easily be used to create a BD25. Includes one of each major English track variant (83 6-channel, stereo, mono, and 93 stereo) in DTS-MA, defaulting to 6-channel 83 (which is just hairy_hen’s new track for 4K83, GOUT-synced). Also includes all of the dubs in my personal dub collection (Dolby Digital), which is big but not exhaustive. Also includes 32 subtitle tracks (only 32 to avoid player compatibility issues) chosen to be most useful for most American, Western European, and Japanese audiences. The subtitle tracks are from the upcoming Project Threepio 11.0, which will be available soon, and you can download that or the current version if you need additional subtitle options.

The purpose of this release is to have a version that “just works” for any mix-and-match purposes without having to think a lot about it, the main beneficiaries likely to be people who watch with their favorite dubs, but it could work with any of the random tracks collectors have been accumulating since the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs were released in 1993 and created this long-lasting fan frame standard we now call GOUT.

PM me for a link if you’d like it. I’m checking with admins right now about putting it on MySpleen (I’m also a complete torrent novice, so there may be technical delays)

I’ll take a different approach on how to respond to someone politely:

Thanks, Catbus.

Your welcome. Hey, I knew it was a niche use case to begin with. Most people don’t even notice the sync problem to begin with. But the requests did start coming in not even a full hour after I posted it, so clearly it’s not that niche.

But to address the point of contention more seriously – I do not have access to all of the GOUT-synced Star Wars audio tracks, or even all of the dubs, in order to re-sync them to 4K83, even if I wanted to. Fans have been slowly accumulating GOUT-synced tracks since 1993 (the year the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs came out) – dubs, in-theatre recordings, commentary, and who knows what else, very little of it having even the most tangential relationship to the deservedly-maligned 2006 bonus discs – and I just provided video that makes these fans’ 4K83 audio experience suck less for very little technical effort on their part. Furthermore I currently do not want to sync my own personal audio files (those included with this release) to 4K83 because I personally favor the DeEds at the moment, and Harmy has indicated he has no plans to move to the 4K83 frame standard at any point in the future. So while we live in this bifurcated universe with two competing frame standards and no reconciliation on the horizon, what I’ve just now done is provided an option so that the choice of watching 4K83 is a painless one because it’s now available GOUT-synced too. There’s 26 YEARS of GOUT-synced Star Wars audio sitting in collector’s closets spread across the globe with no system in place for updating them in any sort of centralized fashion. This audio will be with us for centuries, even long after I find it worthwhile to resync my own relatively small collection to 4K83.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Sorry, I can come off sounding like a jerk sometimes.

You have every right to enjoy the movie the way you want.

I’ll personally never GOUT sync 4k83 but I understand why some would want to.

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I can’t seem to find a no DNR, 4k version of 1.1
Could someone PM me a link?

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GOATS said:

I can’t seem to find a no DNR, 4k version of 1.1
Could someone PM me a link?

And this is why GOUT syncing the video is a futile effort IMO - the video will be constantly going through incremental updates and improvements, and trying to GOUT sync every iteration of 4K83 is going to feel like the myth of Sysyphus very quickly.

OR you’ll get people demanding that this particular version isn’t GOUT synced and why isn’t it when you did THIS version and it can’t be that hard but it’s over my head so I won’t do it myself but I need this one specific audio track to work with this one specific rendering of the video and so on and so on …

Better, I think, to start transitioning everything over to the new frame-complete standard now.

a trolling bantha

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It’s kinda like in Inception. You can only plant the seed for change. Each person has to make up their mind on their own.

I’m even a bit uncertain of all the 4K83 iterations so far.
From memory. I may have missed some.

1.0 1080p, 2160p, my failed colour correction.
1.0 1080p, BluRay ISO and DNR versions by williarob. Colours tweeked

1.1 1080p, 2160p sanjuro_61’s colour correction.
1.1 2k, full frame (uncropped)
1.1 2160p, DNR by williarob using SkyDude’s presets.

1.2 1080p, DNR by SkyDude
1.2 1080p, BluRay ISO of DNR above
1.2.1 2160p DNR by SkyDude, colours tweaked (still rendering, coming soon)

And I’m currently working on a minimal DNR version that is targeting the chroma noise of the camera and trying to preserve the film grain. As yet to be numbered.

None of those 11 or so iterations are GOUT synced.

And of course when DrDre is done with his CC that’ll be even more iterations.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Better, I think, to start transitioning everything over to the new frame-complete standard now.

That makes sense if other video preservation projects join in. But that’s been asked and answered. Other video preservation projects are not joining in. So here we are, so providing compatibility releases of 4K83 seems to be a stopgap… and possibly an indefinite one.

It’s actually a lot simpler than “Each person has to make up their mind on their own.” The audio and subtitles pretty much always follow the lead of the video, in terms of timing. But the video is now leading in two different directions simultaneously, which is the root of the problem. If that were addressed, the sync issues could be resolved case-by-case pretty easily.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Better, I think, to start transitioning everything over to the new frame-complete standard now.

That makes sense if other video preservation projects join in. But that’s been asked and answered. Other video preservation projects are not joining in. So here we are, so providing compatibility releases of 4K83 seems to be a stopgap… and possibly an indefinite one.

The only other project I recall you mentioning is Despecialized. Are there any other potentially ongoing Return of the Jedi projects that aren’t based on 4K83?

I mean, I can understand why nobody feels the need to go back and try to add two frames to projects that were released years ago, but has anybody actually gone and checked the sources for all of these alternate audio tracks? Aren’t some of them from VHS tapes and laserdiscs? The original film always contained these “extra” frames and no doubt many of the PAL and NTSC sources used to create those alternate tracks actually still had them. We already know that they don’t all sync perfectly to the GOUT.

I also think it is fair to assume that any future Return of the Jedi projects would either be based on 4K83 or on a new official 4K Bluray Release from Lucasfilm, or most likely some combination of both. If Harmy ever feels the need to revisit ROTJ Despecialized, these two sources will likely be his starting point, not the current Bluray, nor any previous version of Despecialized (unless it’s used purely as a color reference). Which means, going forward, the complete film as presented in 4K83 will become the new standard for Return of the Jedi.

And Frankly, when 4K83 already looks like this:

Imgur

Imgur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRqmZAat4uw

Why is anyone still watching GOUT or patched Bluray versions of this film anyway?

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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Yeah, I don’t care about it being GOUT synced, I just want the color corrected version

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Williarob said:

CatBus said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Better, I think, to start transitioning everything over to the new frame-complete standard now.

That makes sense if other video preservation projects join in. But that’s been asked and answered. Other video preservation projects are not joining in. So here we are, so providing compatibility releases of 4K83 seems to be a stopgap… and possibly an indefinite one.

The only other project I recall you mentioning is Despecialized. Are there any other potentially ongoing Return of the Jedi projects that aren’t based on 4K83?

Just ones based on Despecialized: Krieg Der Sterne and such. In that sense, I’m calling “Despecialized” a single preservation in the same sense that I’m calling “4K83” a single preservation. It’s a single root source with multiple takes from it. So the Star Wars video world has basically two video preservations, using two different standards.

There are other preservations that I think are safely considered unique, such as Puggo, etc. They are fully self-contained, and make no effort to please a broad audience.

I mean, I can understand why nobody feels the need to go back and try to add two frames to projects that were released years ago, but has anybody actually gone and checked the sources for all of these alternate audio tracks? Aren’t some of them from VHS tapes and laserdiscs? The original film always contained these “extra” frames and no doubt many of the PAL and NTSC sources used to create those alternate tracks actually still had them. We already know that they don’t all sync perfectly to the GOUT.

No, but being audio, we listen to them 😉 I was just as surprised as everyone else that a two-frame difference would be detectable on a dub, but there it is, the complaints are right in this thread. Regardless of the sync problems each of these tracks from myriad sources may have had with the GOUT, the sync issues were not nearly as detectable with GOUT-synced video as it is with 4K83. That’s borne out by the actual complaints.

I also think it is fair to assume that any future Return of the Jedi projects would either be based on 4K83 or on a new official 4K Bluray Release from Lucasfilm, or most likely some combination of both.

That depends on timing. Harmy’s plans have never been for anything above 1080p, so using existing Blu-ray footage seems plausible.

If Harmy ever feels the need to revisit ROTJ Despecialized, these two sources will likely be his starting point, not the current Bluray, nor any previous version of Despecialized (unless it’s used purely as a color reference). Which means, going forward, the complete film as presented in 4K83 will become the new standard for Return of the Jedi.

Did you… ask him this? I did. At least as of then, this is absolutely not the plan. When trying to implement a new cross-project video standard, I’ve found talking to the other projects is a helpful tactic.

And Frankly, when 4K83 already looks like this:

Why is anyone still watching GOUT or patched Bluray versions of this film anyway?

Everyone has different tastes, but those who like more fine detail and the IP/negative scan appearance of your typical modern Blu-ray release may prefer DeEd to 4K83. Color is much more subjective, but until DrDre gets a crack at it, I’d say DeEd maintains an edge there too. In my case, I prefer DeEd on all three counts.

Also, until yesterday, people who liked the audio for their dubs to match the lip movements of the speakers preferred DeEd, so you’re welcome – that one’s now off the list.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Dubbed audio does not match the lips. They are speaking another language.

The GOUT audio is not actually synced to the GOUT video. It is off by as much as 5 frames. This was discovered by hairy_hen while working on the 4k83 audio. It slowly drifts out of sync in the second half.

People don’t complain of it because they aren’t aware of where it’s off. They are told it’s right so they don’t notice it.
People may complain of alternate audio with 4k83 because they know exactly where the sync issue is so they listen and force themselves to hear it. It’s a placebo effect.

If you take something perfect and tell people something is wrong they will find something wrong even though there isn’t.

Even one version of despecialized had audio out of sync and no one noticed because we all assumed it was correct.

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oohteedee said:

Dubbed audio does not match the lips. They are speaking another language.

The ADR team does a surprisingly good job, and the dubbed dialogue is frequently chosen to use words that match lip movements. It’s variable, though. German in particular is pretty good, Thai is all over the place.

Don’t let me get in the way of you dismissing the actual complaints of your actual listeners however you see fit, though.

The GOUT audio is not actually synced to the GOUT video. It is off by as much as 5 frames. This was discovered by hairy_hen while working on the 4k83 audio.

This is true, and just as irrelevant to the discussion as ever.

People don’t complain of it because they aren’t aware of where it’s off. They assume it’s right so their brain tells them it’s right.

There’s a thing called tolerances. You can be off to a degree, but within tolerances, it’s okay. For dialogue, the tolerances are pretty tight–around one frame. For a tracked score, tolerances are well beyond five frames. The GOUT audio was surprisingly off, yes, but it was within the tolerances of the viewers. The 4K83 sync problem, while only two frames, is outside tolerances for a lot of people, because it covers dialogue.

People may complain of alternate audio being used with 4k83 because they know exactly where the sync issue is so they listen and force themselves to hear it. It’s a placebo effect.

If you take something perfect and tell people something is wrong they will find something wrong even though there isn’t.

I’ll just let that stand as its own counter-argument.

Even one version of despecialized had audio out of sync and no one noticed because we all assumed it was correct.

Yes, DeEd at one point (ROTJ 1.0 IIRC) used PAL video and NTSC audio, for a two-frame difference. The same people complained and it got fixed. Harmy couldn’t see the problem himself, but he could see the technical fault and never implied those who complained were just making things up. It’s part of his charm.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:
Harmy’s plans have never been for anything above 1080p, so using existing Blu-ray footage seems plausible.

I didn’t talk to Harmy about Jedi, I was just extrapolating based on his recent video about Star Wars Despecialized 3.0:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-QP-tQR0XY

In which he explains how and why 4K77 footage will be cut into and conformed to NeverarGreat’s color correction of Despecialized to create the new version.

It just made sense to me that if he uses 4K77 for Star Wars, he would use 4K83 for Jedi because as of right now there is still no higher quality source for the original shots.

Many of the Despecialized tracks have already been conformed for 4K83, so in my humble opinion, clinging to a crappy DVD from 2006 as the defacto standard when all the other versions of that film already have those “extra” frames seems like a waste. Why not conform the remaining audio tracks and then throw that GOUT disc away after the new version is released? But I guess that’s just me.

I do know that 1080p is as high as he wants to go, and I don’t mind that at all - I don’t think the 35mm sources resolve much more detail than 1080p anyway. But I also think that if an official 4K Bluray of Return of the Jedi comes out next year, Special Edition or not, that would be my first choice for the basis of a new Despecialized - unless they really cock it up. Downscaled to 1080p, it should still look better than the current bluray and will hopefully be easier to color correct.

If we’re really lucky, it won’t even need despecializing. But if that happens and the official release is 4K83 sync’d rather than GOUT sync’d, will you be cutting those frames out of that version too?

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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Williarob said:

CatBus said:
Harmy’s plans have never been for anything above 1080p, so using existing Blu-ray footage seems plausible.

I didn’t talk to Harmy about Jedi, I was just extrapolating

When you assume…

Seriously. Ask the guy. Get an answer. It saved a lot of time for me, and then we can both be operating with the facts.

clinging to a crappy DVD from 2006 as the defacto standard

To be fair, it’s a crappy Laserdisc from 1993. People have been “GOUT syncing” since long before there was a GOUT to sync to.

Why not conform the remaining audio tracks

Because even if you had a catalogue of all of them (which does not exist), they won’t work with Despecialized. People may stop watching Despecialized once 4K83 catches up, though, so it’s a thing to reconsider periodically.

If we’re really lucky, it won’t even need despecializing. But if that happens and the official release is 4K83 sync’d rather than GOUT sync’d, will you be cutting those frames out of that version too?

I plan to sync to the version that best resembles a modern, respectful Blu-ray treatment of the original trilogy. If an official release qualifies, I’d sync to that (…and drink to that). Until then, I have to decide between two competing factions and right now I’m coming down on the side of DeEd. Again, maybe that’s just until Harmy changes his mind, and maybe that’s just until 4K83 does better. Either way works to resolve the schism.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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This is true, and just as irrelevant to the discussion as ever.

If you truly believe that 2 frames of foreign dialogue is more out of sync than 5 frames of English (original) dialog then this whole conversation is pointless. Logic has lost.