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4K83 Released — Page 6

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You_Too said:

I haven’t finished downloading this yet but I have some questions about the audio. Sorry if they’ve already been clearly answered, I’m too tired to read through the thread at the moment.

What’s the difference between the optical audio track packed in the mkv file and the “cleaned” one?
And are there any digital tracks that actually matches the theatrical stereo audio? I see the 1993 LD track is there but weren’t all the 1993 LD mixes altered? The 1983 Japan and US sources, are they from LDs too?

The image quality is great by the way, managed to preview a bit of it. 😃

TN1 didn’t include a LD capture of the 1983 mix in the released MKVs because the optical audio from the print itself was very high quality with nothing missing (unlike SW77’s optical audio, which wasn’t complete from a single source). I guess they thought including an LD cap of the same mix was redundant.

Personally, I think the LD audio sounds better, and Schorman provided PCM copies synced to 4K83 over at the 4K## forums, so I remuxed the MKV with one of those.

Also for clarity, the hairy_hen 5.1 with added music was included by mistake (HH explained that it was his personal version and meant to provide the “accurate” one for inclusion with the MKVs). Personally I really like the added music in the Obi-Wan scene, but for those who want the new hairy_hen 5.1 with no added music, he’s made that available for remuxing as well.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

Also for clarity, the hairy_hen 5.1 with added music was included by mistake (HH explained that it was his personal version and meant to provide the “accurate” one for inclusion with the MKVs). Personally I really like the added music in the Obi-Wan scene, but for those who want the new hairy_hen 5.1 with no added music, he’s made that available for remuxing as well.

Ah, interesting! Where would one go about finding that?

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schorman13 said:
*4) Optical stereo soundtrack provided by TN1, sychronized, declicked, and denoised by me.

Wait, if the optical stereo track included in the mkv is already cleaned up, why is there a separate version in the “alternate audio” folder named “ROTJ - 35mm Optical [Cleaned]”?

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It’s an AC-3 encode of the same track. It’s a DTS-HD MA encode in the MKV. Same with the 5.1 mix.

It should also be noted that while two “1985 Home Video Mix” files are included in the Alternate Audio folder, they’re actually the same as the 1983 theatrical mix, of which Schorman says the one marked “1983 - Stereo (US Source)” is the best quality.

a trolling bantha

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You_Too said:

schorman13 said:
*4) Optical stereo soundtrack provided by TN1, sychronized, declicked, and denoised by me.

Wait, if the optical stereo track included in the mkv is already cleaned up, why is there a separate version in the “alternate audio” folder named “ROTJ - 35mm Optical [Cleaned]”?

It’s not really an alternate. I just posted it individually in case anyone might like to download the track by itself, without the rest of 4K83. I named it “[Cleaned]” because I worked on it, and I don’t want it to be confused with the untouched audio, which I didn’t share, but could if anyone really wanted it.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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ChainsawAsh said:
It should also be noted that while two “1985 Home Video Mix” files are included in the Alternate Audio folder, they’re actually the same as the 1983 theatrical mix, of which Schorman says the one marked “1983 - Stereo (US Source)” is the best quality.

Thanks, so both the Japan and US ones are from 1985 LD releases? Looking forward to compare them.

schorman13 said:
It’s not really an alternate. I just posted it individually in case anyone might like to download the track by itself, without the rest of 4K83. I named it “[Cleaned]” because I worked on it, and I don’t want it to be confused with the untouched audio, which I didn’t share, but could if anyone really wanted it.

Thanks, the ac3 file might work better with my blu-ray player. Good to know they’re the same. The main track that I heard when previewing the mkv sounded great.

It would be interesting to hear some comparison samples of before and after your cleanup though. 😃

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There’s four - two US, two Japan; the ones marked as the 1983 mix are from pan-and-scan LDs, and of those two the US one is the better source. The ones marked 1985 mix are from the Japanese Special Collection and the US Widescreen Edition, which was the debut of the 1985 mix for ANH and (maybe) ESB, but per Schorman, it’s the same mix as the 1983 theatrical mix. They’re presumably only included because whoever made the MKV package (williarob or ohteedee, I think) assumed a new mix was done for ROTJ in 1985, as most of us have for years.

a trolling bantha

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 (Edited)

You_Too said:

ChainsawAsh said:
It should also be noted that while two “1985 Home Video Mix” files are included in the Alternate Audio folder, they’re actually the same as the 1983 theatrical mix, of which Schorman says the one marked “1983 - Stereo (US Source)” is the best quality.

Thanks, so both the Japan and US ones are from 1985 LD releases? Looking forward to compare them.

schorman13 said:
It’s not really an alternate. I just posted it individually in case anyone might like to download the track by itself, without the rest of 4K83. I named it “[Cleaned]” because I worked on it, and I don’t want it to be confused with the untouched audio, which I didn’t share, but could if anyone really wanted it.

Thanks, the ac3 file might work better with my blu-ray player. Good to know they’re the same. The main track that I heard when previewing the mkv sounded great.

It would be interesting to hear some comparison samples of before and after your cleanup though. 😃

I was confused. I forgot about the “Alternate Audio” folder. Yeah, that cleaned file is there in case anyone needed it in ac3 format, as ChainsawAsh said.

ChainsawAsh said:

There’s four - two US, two Japan; the ones marked as the 1983 mix are from pan-and-scan LDs, and of those two the US one is the better source. The ones marked 1985 mix are from the Japanese Special Collection and the US Widescreen Edition, which was the debut of the 1985 mix for ANH and (maybe) ESB, but per Schorman, it’s the same mix as the 1983 theatrical mix. They’re presumably only included because whoever made the MKV package (williarob or ohteedee, I think) assumed a new mix was done for ROTJ in 1985, as most of us have for years.

Yeah, I was worried people might be confused by how many different versions there were of the '83 mix. I had them all done so I shared them. In reality, anyone wanting authenticity above all should choose the optical soundtrack. The US pan & scan LD does offer the best sounding version of the soundtrack, in my opinion. The other versions are shared for anyone with an attachment to the JSC or SWE.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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If you do not know how to download, please contact me in a PM, I’ll explain.

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CatBus said:

Just to tie up the sync discussion, which is continuing over in the GOUT sync thread, Discostu has pointed out, and I’ve confirmed, that the sync difference of two frames is noticeable in at least the German dub, which does a lot better lip-matching than most dubs. But now that we know that, it’s hard to know if we can really draw a bright line and declare any dubs at all to be immune to a noticeable two-frame sync difference. So if you want to sync with 4k83, you do need to edit the audio, regardless of what the audio is. Or trim two frames from the video.

Could someone provide me with a manual how to easily trim the audio to fit? I still have this sitting on my hard drive and would like to synch, mux and burn it to replace the Despecialized Edition.

“I want to watch Empire on my refrigerator’s LCD screen but listen to the Austrailan audio thru my USB phonograph setup and it worked on the other two movies” -yoda-sama

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Now that I have the entire file, something that caught my interest is the colors (what a surprise, right?) and how different they are from what I expected in some scenes. I don’t have the grindhouse version since I needed to keep some free space for these new ones, but I’d be grateful if someone could post these frames (or just any frame from the same shots) from the raw scan or grindhouse version:

This one looks more or less the way I expected, just a little brighter maybe.


This one looks quite ok with the subtitles being white with just a tiny green tint to them.


These two have cyan subtitles and whites, this is interesting as well.


I expected this shot to be a lot warmer, and that whole scene since it’s set in the desert. Of course that’s based on all the previous versions of ROTJ!

Overall, the quality of both the picture and audio of this release is simply stunning. Good job everyone!

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The barge shot of the LPP looks much better than what You_Too posted.

“After a time, you may find that having, is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.” - Spock

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Yeah, the LPP seems to have much better colors.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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The 4K83 Eastman print color matched to the LPP would be the best all around, I think.

a trolling bantha

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I’m sorry, I had no idea that there were two separate prints!
So the one that has been shared before was the LPP and you based your 4K83 on this Eastman print?
The image quality of 4K83 is amazing, but those LPP shots you posted have none of the color errors I noticed in the 4K83. Subtitles are balanced white without any visible tints, the shot of the barge in the desert is warm which I imagined it to be.
So basically, you’re saying that the Eastman print was more preserved than the LPP except for the colors, and you chose to base your restoration on it because of the resolution? Is the scan of the LPP not in 4K since it wasn’t used instead?

What ChainsawAsh said is something that would’ve been nice if it could be done shot by shot, unless someone restores that LPP print in the same way. Really interesting either way.

EDIT: I forgot to ask: Has that LPP print went through any color correction too or is it raw?

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The Eastman print is a show print struck directly from the negative that was very rarely screened, so it has significantly more detail than any release print and is in wonderful condition, which is why it only took 6 months to restore.

The LPP is a couple more generations away from the negative, but should have all the color timing detail from the interpositive/internegative steps preserved that are likely just not there in the Eastman print.

Also, the LPP wasn’t scanned at 4K and is missing frames, plus is more damaged, so its value is primarily as a color reference to punch up the Eastman (4K83) print if people are so inclined.

But 4K83 is an accurate preservation of the Eastman show print, which is why (I think) the decision was made to preserve the colors as stored on it versus matching it to something like the LPP for the primary 4K83 release.

Williarob or ohteedee can correct me if I’m mistaken on any of this, of course.

a trolling bantha

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Harmy’s Grindhouse was from a different print than our LPP.

I don’t know how much, if any, color correction was applied to our LPP: I received it as a Bluray ISO. I would imagine at least some basic color correction was done, but it would have been applied on a reel by reel (or even one setting for the whole film). I’m hoping to get access to a better version of the scan soon - not for the purpose of restoration, but for use as a color reference.

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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Another thing I’ve been meaning to ask about is the difference in how this 4k project of the trilogy is being scanned in to begin with versus how it was done for the previous go around (SSE, ESB Grindhouse, RotJ).

On the original TN1 35mm project page, I remember seeing a photo of a print being scanned in using a homemade scanner that was basically just a DSLR. IIRC this resulted in light leaking through in certain shots (the Death Star conference room comes to mind).

For the 4k projects, I’m assuming actual professional grade scanning equipment was used?

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Williarob said:

Harmy’s Grindhouse was from a different print than our LPP.

I don’t know how much, if any, color correction was applied to our LPP: I received it as a Bluray ISO. I would imagine at least some basic color correction was done, but it would have been applied on a reel by reel (or even one setting for the whole film). I’m hoping to get access to a better version of the scan soon - not for the purpose of restoration, but for use as a color reference.

I see. Your version looks like a great color reference based on those shots at least. Would be interesting to see some other random shots from the entire movie. 😃

Oh and about the audio: What would be the best, technically speaking, the optical audio or that US LD 1983 mix? When comparing them, the optical sounds more “full”, more bass in it.

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Fang Zei said:

Another thing I’ve been meaning to ask about is the difference in how this 4k project of the trilogy is being scanned in to begin with versus how it was done for the previous go around (SSE, ESB Grindhouse, RotJ).

On the original TN1 35mm project page, I remember seeing a photo of a print being scanned in using a homemade scanner that was basically just a DSLR. IIRC this resulted in light leaking through in certain shots (the Death Star conference room comes to mind).

For the 4k projects, I’m assuming actual professional grade scanning equipment was used?

The equipment has been upgraded more than once since that footage was shot, but we’re still using a homemade ‘scanner’. What started out with some parts from an old VCR moving the film and a digital still camera, is now a full size standard 35mm cinema projector with a 4K Black Magic camera (and special lens) pointed directly into the projector. Film is captured in realtime - optical audio too, using the same Dolby circuit boards that they used at the cinema, attached to the projector.

It’s not as good as using a Director, or an Arriscan, or something like that, obviously - no tripple flash, no dirtmaps. But one advantage is that by using a real 1980s bulb and a real projector, the colors we capture are pretty close to what you would see at the cinema. The grain is still a little more front and center than it would be reflected off the silver screen, and we have to monitor the process to keep the shutters in sync (this can be computer controlled, but we’re not there yet), but on the whole it provides a pretty authentic experience.

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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You_Too said:

Williarob said:

Harmy’s Grindhouse was from a different print than our LPP.

I don’t know how much, if any, color correction was applied to our LPP: I received it as a Bluray ISO. I would imagine at least some basic color correction was done, but it would have been applied on a reel by reel (or even one setting for the whole film). I’m hoping to get access to a better version of the scan soon - not for the purpose of restoration, but for use as a color reference.

I see. Your version looks like a great color reference based on those shots at least. Would be interesting to see some other random shots from the entire movie. 😃

Oh and about the audio: What would be the best, technically speaking, the optical audio or that US LD 1983 mix? When comparing them, the optical sounds more “full”, more bass in it.

Here are some more frames:

imgur

I’m not an audio guy, so I’ll let Schorman and Hairy_hen address your sound questions…

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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Williarob said:

You_Too said:

Williarob said:

Harmy’s Grindhouse was from a different print than our LPP.

I don’t know how much, if any, color correction was applied to our LPP: I received it as a Bluray ISO. I would imagine at least some basic color correction was done, but it would have been applied on a reel by reel (or even one setting for the whole film). I’m hoping to get access to a better version of the scan soon - not for the purpose of restoration, but for use as a color reference.

I see. Your version looks like a great color reference based on those shots at least. Would be interesting to see some other random shots from the entire movie. 😃

Oh and about the audio: What would be the best, technically speaking, the optical audio or that US LD 1983 mix? When comparing them, the optical sounds more “full”, more bass in it.

Here are some more frames:

imgur

I’m not an audio guy, so I’ll let Schorman and Hairy_hen address your sound questions…

It seems to me that as for many ROTJ prints, this LPP is suffering from a blue cast. Using Return of the Pug as a reference, I would put the colors about here:

Here are the individual frames:

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First of all, Williarob: For being home made, I could still swear you had used a real professional scanner for 4K77 and 4K83! Amazing job.

Interesting, the LPP does seem to have a lot more blue in it, but also more preserved yellows.

And Dre, you’re great at what you do as well. I’ll keep an eye on your upcoming color correction projects. 😃

I hope it’s ok I keep asking some things here. It’s just so interesting since I’ve been away from these things for a few years and to come back and see actual prints being restored like this is a joy.