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4K restoration on Star Wars — Page 53

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 (Edited)

Alderaan said:

Tobar said:

Alderaan said:

 Most people don't want the official BR. They also don't want the OOT looking like it did in '77-83.

 Considering most people I've come across who are casual fans of Star Wars still hold onto their VHS copies, I'm gonna take that statement with a grain of salt.

 

I have my VHS copies too, but that's only because something better hasn't been released in a newer format.

Laserdisc? '06 Bonus (GOUT) DVDs?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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Alderaan said:

They just want the OOT version looking like the official BR does now.

So they want amateurishly-bad color grading and DNR'd-to-hell PQ. Interesting.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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 (Edited)

Including a disc of the OOT with "cleaned up" vfx just seems redundant to me. Unless Disney were to suddenly reverse GL's policy and make that the next/final version of the SE (which ain't gonna happen), I don't want to pay extra for what would technically be an altered version of the OT. I would never watch it.

Besides, there are a lot of movies on blu-ray with effects that haven't been cleaned up and no one seems to mind. I think people realize a movie is a product of its time and don't let themselves get distracted by effects that look a little wonky today. The same would be true of Star Wars. If not for the fact that the SE has been the most widely seen version for the last eighteen years, I don't think people would give the matte lines a second thought.

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Alderaan said:

Yes, I think people will care. Most people want to see the original films, but enhanced for modern home theater entertainment purposes. What Disney should do is release an OOT set with with two options for each film:



1) Cleaned up OOT ... basically what the SE versions should have been all along. No Greedo shooting. No rock in front of R2. No CGI Jabba. No CGI inserts AT ALL. No Boba Fett mugging. No Luke screaming. No Jedi Rocks. No Hayden Ghost. etc. But with the new composite look above.



This is what I think most people want. Just an up-to-date modernized HD home viewing experience of the original movies.



2) OOT Theatrical Release



For the purists, who should absolutely have the option to watch the theatrical versions, matte lines and all.



Kind of like how the 2006 release had the SE as the feature and GOUT as an extra bonus, purists' best shot is to get a cleaned up OT as the feature with OOT as an added bonus. jmo
The differences between those two versions would be so insignificant as to not even be a viable option. I mean if you're going to have the OT really restored with matte lines and everything. Then some other version where the only difference is that the effects were digitally composited. It's really such a small difference that it's barely worth it to put it there. If there are options they'll probably be one of the SEs.

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AntcuFaalb said:

Laserdisc? '06 Bonus (GOUT) DVDs?

I never had LD growing up back in the day, just VHS until I got my dual VHS/DVD player. I vowed never to get the SE and when I heard about GOUT I was determined to just watch on VHS, fan edits, and the like.

 

AntcuFaalb said:

So they want amateurishly-bad color grading and DNR'd-to-hell PQ. Interesting.

That might be the take of someone with a discerning eye, but I think the majority of people watching Star Wars at home want it to look as close to a present-day release as possible. That's why most people still put up with the SE, after all.

 

adywan said:

I'd say that this is the LAST thing they would want

I'm just going to respectfully disagree and point out that the vast majority of people who watch the original trilogy watch the SE version on BluRay, DVD, and television, as opposed to VHS and fan edits like some of us. They hate the altered product and bitch about it, rightfully so, but they prefer *NEW* and shiny, the same way most people wouldn't be driving around in classic vintage cars, even if there were enough to go around.

 

Fang Zei said:

Unless Disney were to suddenly reverse GL's policy and make that the next/final version of the SE (which ain't gonna happen)

Why not? Lucas's SE is just a director's cut. There are countless films that have been released as studio versions and separate director's cuts. If Disney were smart, they would go back to releasing the original studio versions in perpetuity, and just rebrand the SE as Lucas's director's cut.

 

Fang Zei said:

I don't want to pay extra for what would technically be an altered version of the OT. I would never watch it.

Nearly everyone on this forum would buy the prequels, all of the SE's, and Ewok action figures ... if it meant that somewhere inside that box was BluRay of the OOT. I suggest finding the largest demographic of Star Wars watchers and riding their coattails might be the best way to get your hands on one.

 

Fang Zei said:

Besides, there are a lot of movies on blu-ray with effects that haven't been cleaned up and no one seems to mind. I think people realize a movie is a product of its time and don't let themselves get distracted by effects that look a little wonky today.

Some people mind, some people don't. It would just make sense for Disney to please everyone with as little cost and effort expended as possible. A disk or set that provides an updated OOT as well as a classic OOT would do just that.

 

twister111 said:

The differences between those two versions would be so insignificant as to not even be a viable option. I mean if you're going to have the OT really restored with matte lines and everything. Then some other version where the only difference is that the effects were digitally composited. It's really such a small difference that it's barely worth it to put it there. If there are options they'll probably be one of the SEs.

The problem is though that people -- in general -- don't like the SEs. They like the sleek look, but the nonsense changes and fake CGI have alienated many long-time fans as well as turned off potential new fans. If Disney sticks with the SEs, they are providing an inferior product and not maximizing what they've got.

The two versions I described might not seem that different, but fans have "sticky" tastes. Small differences can mean a lot.

The best approach for Disney is to provide an official version:

1) "cleaned up" OT

2) along with OOT (what everyone here wants)

And also provide the SE's as Lucas's director's cut.

Then everyone is happy, including everyone here who wants the OOT.

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I just stopped reading the above, I suggest everyone do the same.

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 (Edited)

yoda-sama said:

I just stopped reading the above, I suggest everyone do the same.

I don't.

I appreciate that Alderaan took the time to address every reply point-by-point with a reasoned, coherent, and otherwise concise argument for his position.

I don't agree with everything he wrote, but at least he didn't post several insanity-driven walls of text with nonsense arguments and tons of ellipses. There's too much of that on the WWW lately and I think it's refreshing to see posts like his rather than the aforementioned rubbish.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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If you did a mashup of every comment that went "I think they should release the OOT but still including these certain Special Edition changes" and "I think that a properly-restored OOT wouldn't pass muster with today's discerning viewer based on my experiences with a decades-old home video transfer rather than my experiences with other properly-restored films of the same era, or because Lucas said so", you'd get something a lot more concise.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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AntcuFaalb said:

I don't.

I appreciate that Alderaan took the time to address every reply point-by-point with a reasoned, coherent, and otherwise concise argument for his position.

 Thanks, AntcuFaalb. It's nice to see people can still disagree civilly on the internet these days.

 

CatBus said:

If you did a mashup of every comment that went "I think they should release the OOT but still including these certain Special Edition changes"

I'm aware of that argument, and how many tiny changes there have been made throughout the years. It's hard to keep track of them all. That's why I suggested to start over, just start from scratch and not factor the SEs into the picture at all. Just relegate them to their own product, Lucas's cut, which is what they are. Anyone who wants the SE can have it, it's already out there.

For the rest of us -- the majority of SW fans -- Disney could:

1) restore the OOT

2) from that, modernize the vfx

And whoever is in charge of the project would be making the final call on what gets altered, but if they are smart they would just clean up the picture, fix the sabers, things like that.

 

CatBus said:

rather than my experiences with other properly-restored films of the same era, or because Lucas said so", you'd get something a lot more concise.

I think watching Star Wars is a little different than watching something like The Godfather, don't you think?

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Yoda said:

No! No different. Only in your mind.

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I would prefer a visually improved version of Star Wars, with cleaned up matte lines and better sabres. That's why I like Adywan's version better than any other version. I strongly feel that the unaltered originals should be released to the public in good quality, but for me it's solely because I don't think the original of any film should be overwritten with another version, most especially when the film is a classic.

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I always watch GOUT instead of the SEs. The alterations combined with the crushed blacks, blue tint, and ruined lightsabers make the SEs unwatchable to me.

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Alderaan said:

I think watching Star Wars is a little different than watching something like The Godfather, don't you think?

Absolutely. One of them looks and sounds like it did in theatres (although some argue this point because they don't think the yellow tint is from bulb-matching), and one of them clearly doesn't, which is rather the point.

EDIT: If you're talking about "looking dated", you simply need to look at the haircuts.  They are movies from the seventies.  The VFX, editing, haircuts and fashions are all dead giveaways.  I'm sure it's possible to give everyone a digital haircut, freshen up the fashions and color schemes a bit, do some more jump cuts and fewer wipes, and remove the matte lines, but that would just turn it into a seventies movie trying to be a modern movie (and failing).  Which, in a lot of ways, is one of the primary problems with the Special Editions.  To focus exclusively on matte lines is really no different than focusing exclusively on haircuts.  It's the same "I don't like the look of films from that period" writ small.  Not that it isn't a valid opinion to have, but that's what it is.

It's also not my intention to be dismissive of your opinion, just of the idea that you can extrapolate/evangelize your opinion to what everyone else might want. Heck, I wouldn't mind changes to the originals myself (no cue marks, no gate weave, no burn marks, some dirt & scratch removal), but I know there's plenty who would disagree with me on some or all of these.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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AntcuFaalb said:

Alderaan said:

They just want the OOT version looking like the official BR does now.

So they want amateurishly-bad color grading and DNR'd-to-hell PQ. Interesting.

I of course wouldn't want that, but if it were the unaltered OT then I would still buy it. I mean, there are plenty of movies with sub-par blu ray releases out there. For example, Halloween: H20 has a lame blu ray release with poor PQ, but I enjoy the film and the franchise so I own it anyway. Obviously Star Wars is light years ahead of H20 so I have no doubt that Star Wars would never be released in a quality as low as poor H20 was, but even if it did, and it was the unaltered versions, I'd buy it in a heart beat, but only if they were the unaltered versions.

The Person in Question

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Alderaan, you make the assumption that nobody likes the SEs. That's simply not true, as you'll find a lot of people on here at the very least preferring the 97 SEs. I also, to a degree, like the SEs, but I don't think they should be the only version out there. They do add some necessary fixes here and there, and are a generally interesting experiment. But ultimately, the definitive versions of these films are the unaltered ones. I don't want an official semi-specialized. That's where I think the fan edit community can fill in the gaps.

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Alderaan said:

 
twister111 said:
The differences between those two versions would be so insignificant as to not even be a viable option. I mean if you're going to have the OT really restored with matte lines and everything. Then some other version where the only difference is that the effects were digitally composited. It's really such a small difference that it's barely worth it to put it there. If there are options they'll probably be one of the SEs.


The problem is though that people -- in general -- don't like the SEs. They like the sleek look, but the nonsense changes and fake CGI have alienated many long-time fans as well as turned off potential new fans. If Disney sticks with the SEs, they are providing an inferior product and not maximizing what they've got.

The two versions I described might not seem that different, but fans have "sticky" tastes. Small differences can mean a lot.

The best approach for Disney is to provide an official version:

1) "cleaned up" OT

2) along with OOT (what everyone here wants)



And also provide the SE's as Lucas's director's cut.



Then everyone is happy, including everyone here who wants the OOT.
I seriously doubt that they're going to waste time or energy putting together a new slightly different special edition version just because of any reasoning you might have. If they're going to restore the originals and put them out for sale just having another "no mattes" special edition on the disc that absolutely no one but you seems to be asking for would just be a big "why?" moment. You may not like the SEs, I may not like the SEs, but they do have their fans and many more people that would want that. So it only makes sense that if there's any other version whatsoever on the release that it's going to be one of the SEs.

I'll just ask who else do you know of is asking for the kind of Star Wars special edition you're describing wherein they've only taken out the mattes?


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Wazzles said:

Alderaan, you make the assumption that nobody likes the SEs. That's simply not true, as you'll find a lot of people on here at the very least preferring the 97 SEs. I also, to a degree, like the SEs, but I don't think they should be the only version out there.

Hmm...maybe we are misunderstanding each other. I'm definitely not arguing for an SE-only version. I don't think it's an either/or proposition. I'm suggesting it could be a good idea to sell a disk or set that has two versions, one the OOT (unaltered), and one that is what the 97SE should have been all along -- namely useful improvements, and not all of the crap that pisses people off.

Of course not everyone will agree which changes (if any) were beneficial, but that's why Disney should offer both. If you don't like the cleaned up version, just watch the unaltered OOT, which needs to be restored for historical purposes anyway. Some people will even prefer to watch the theatrical releases. But if bright, shiny, and new is important, which it is to a lot of people, you can watch an updated version that still looks mostly like the original, but with some visual enhancement that doesn't change the story or act as an advertisement for LFL's 90s CGI junk.

If someone prefers the SE as is, well that's already out there. Disney could re-brand that as the Lucas Special Edition or something.

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CatBus said:

Alderaan said:

I think watching Star Wars is a little different than watching something like The Godfather, don't you think?

Absolutely. One of them looks and sounds like it did in theatres (although some argue this point because they don't think the yellow tint is from bulb-matching), and one of them clearly doesn't, which is rather the point.

EDIT: If you're talking about "looking dated", you simply need to look at the haircuts.  They are movies from the seventies.  The VFX, editing, haircuts and fashions are all dead giveaways.  I'm sure it's possible to give everyone a digital haircut, freshen up the fashions and color schemes a bit, do some more jump cuts and fewer wipes, and remove the matte lines, but that would just turn it into a seventies movie trying to be a modern movie (and failing).  Which, in a lot of ways, is one of the primary problems with the Special Editions.  To focus exclusively on matte lines is really no different than focusing exclusively on haircuts.  It's the same "I don't like the look of films from that period" writ small.  Not that it isn't a valid opinion to have, but that's what it is.

It's also not my intention to be dismissive of your opinion, just of the idea that you can extrapolate/evangelize your opinion to what everyone else might want. Heck, I wouldn't mind changes to the originals myself (no cue marks, no gate weave, no burn marks, some dirt & scratch removal), but I know there's plenty who would disagree with me on some or all of these.

 Largely I agree with Alderaan, in that newly composited original elements (but no CGI embelishments), put together as a "Showcase" version for a modern DCP/Blu-Ray/4K, would be ideal for a wide release of the Classic cuts. Though CatBus makes a perfect point about preserving the film(s) as a product of their time (and where would Disney hypothetically draw the line should they decide to play in the Lucas sandbox?), I believe tidying up the original compositing would eliminate the biggest remaining distraction for modern audiences. Everything about set design, hairstyles, costumes, etc., should remain as it is, because, those are aspects that contemporary audiences *expect* to see, and will not find jarring, in the way that a blurry landspeeder (1970's VFX) or ronto creature (1990's VFX) would on a modern screen. In other words, cheap sets and costumes, by themselves, don't degrade the image quality in the way that photochemically-composited VFX may have (in some cases). I think that most of us here, though, understand that the original VFX needs to be acknowledged and preserved, whether seamlessly branched or presented on an alternate disc, as a concrete duty to film history.

If your crop is water, what, exactly, would you dust your crops with?

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This is the biggest conundrum for me when it comes to the idea of releasing an OUT on blu-ray. Everyone has a different opinion of what it should be, and that's just in the die-hard  fan sector. Add that to the casual fan and or viewer, along with the people at Disney. In each if these sectors, you have different levels of interest when it comes to the details (matte lines, colors, sound mix, ect)  in each version as well as differing knowledge of what details encompass a specific version of OUT. Basically what I'm saying is there is no consensus, which is a potential problem.

40,000 million notches away
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Windexed said:

This is the biggest conundrum for me when it comes to the idea of releasing an OUT on blu-ray. Everyone has a different opinion of what it should be, and that's just in the die-hard  fan sector. Add that to the casual fan and or viewer, along with the people at Disney. In each if these sectors, you have different levels of interest when it comes to the details (matte lines, colors, sound mix, ect)  in each version as well as differing knowledge of what details encompass a specific version of OUT. Basically what I'm saying is there is no consensus, which is a potential problem.

There's no consensus, but there's a very simple solution: scan an IP, grade to a good release print, fix annoying temporal anomalies (e.g., flicker), dirt/scratch clean, encode, and release.

I don't see how anyone can argue against a "this is the original, as it was" release.

If some fans want improved SPFX, then they can do it on their own with this kind of release; on the other hand, if some fans want an accurate representation of the original SPFX, then only this kind of release satisfies that desire.

An as-unfucked-with-as-possible OOT release benefits everyone.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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RU.08 said:

I don't think disney is interested in releasing the pre-SE's. Just like they don't care about releasing theatrical versions of their own films.

I don't know about that. They definitely seem interested in winning back "old fans" with a lot of the stuff they're doing for VII.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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 (Edited)

I personally think the BR of Close Encounters of the Third Kind looks pretty fantastic, and this was released the same year as ANH.  I'm sure it didn't have as many theatrical runs and the negative didn't suffer the same fate as ANH, but it's worth viewing (and kind of a gauge) when the sentiment "I don't want to watch the movies as they were back then" comes up.

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