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30 years ago: MOVE (was: 25 years ago: MOVE)

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 (Edited)

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/93137669.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

 

I don't know if anyone outside the Philadelphia area has ever heard of MOVE or Osage Avenue or what happened there on May 13, 1985.  You can read the links up about and learn about it in detail.   Essentially,  MOVE was a group of nuts, a cult.   No one has ever understood what their true motives and goals were.   They all took the last name of Africa.   Their leader called himself John Africa(his real name was Vincent Leaphart). They terrorized whatever community they lived in(first Powelton Village and then Osage Avenue).   There were two major confrontations with the Philadelphia police.   The first, on 08/08/1978 in Powelton Village.   In that incident, cops moved to evict MOVE from their house in Powelton Village.  This resulted in a shootout.  A cop was killed.  Many of the MOVE members were arrested for the murder of the cop and other charges.    After that incident,  the main of goal of the group was to free all of its members in jail, and they didn't care how they when about it or who they hurt.   They moved to 6221 Osage Avenue.   They terrorized that neighborhood.   They set up bull horns on their roof and drove the neighborhood nuts with announcing their demands.  They had raw meat  sitting outside of their house, which attracted rats and flies and other insects.   Those rats and insects, of course, got into the neighboring houses.   MOVE turned their house into a bunker.    They also had children which were not properly cared for.   Neighbors reported that the MOVE children were picking through trash cans for food and were not properly clothed and I also don't believe they were receiving an education.   It all came to a boil on May 13, 1985.  The cops were finally going to remove them.    They surround the house, got the neighbors out of their houses(so they wouldn't be in harms way),  a gun battle started on that morning.   It resulted in a standoff.   It was on all of the local news stations.    I watched part of the coverage that morning before school.  It was the first I ever heard of MOVE.    The coverage of the standoff is seared into my mind.  It looked like a war zone.   It was the first time I ever saw such a thing on live TV.  I was 11 at the time.   After I came home from school it was still going on.     The city made a decision to drop a bomb on the house.   The bomb was dropped at 5:27 PM.   That bomb being dropped is also seared into my mind as well as everyone else's who lived in the Philadelphia area, at the time.   It started a fire.  The cops, for fear that the fire department would be fired on by the MOVE members still inside the house,  kept the firemen back from being able to put the fire out.     The fire engulfed the house,   Depending on which side you believe,   the MOVE members either refused to leave the house or were kept from leaving by gunfire from the cops.    11 people were killed, burned to death in the MOVE house.   5 of them were children.     There were only 2 survivors,   an adult female(Ramona Africa) and a child(Birdie Africa).  The fire burned and destroyed 60 houses.   Osage Avenue was on the opposite side of the city from where I lived.   I lived(and still do) in New Jersey,  across the Delaware river.   Yet, I could see the smoke from the MOVE fire.  It filled the sky in that direction.   I will never forget the coverage of the event nor the smoke in the sky.   11 people died  and 60 houses were destroyed.  What's worse is that the city promised to rebuild the houses for residents of Osage Avenue, but when they did, it was quickly learned that the houses were junk.   They quickly began to fall apart.    The residents have been fighting with the city ever since.   MOVE still exists and they are suspected of murdering John Gilbride Jr. in 2002.  The murder remains unsolved to this day.   Will there be future incidents with MOVE?  Who knows.   The groups isn't like what it was.   It mostly keeps to itself and lives off the lawsuit Ramona Africa won from the City.   They haven't been causing trouble, but who knows what might happen?  Today marks the 25th Anniversary of the MOVE fire.

I am just curious how much people outside of the Philadelphia area know about the incident and MOVE. 

I urge you to click on the links above.   They tell the story more accurately and in more detail than I. 

thoughts?  reactions?  comments?


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This literally the first I've heard of MOVE.

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Same here.  Granted, the commission on the shoot-out gave its report the day before I was born, so I guess I have an excuse.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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thanks for making me feel old : (


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I was 10 at the time. Does that make you feel:

a) Older?
b) Younger?
c) The same?

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 (Edited)

I saw a documentary on this on the telly about 2 years ago. 

It is really a strange and tragic incident of anything that can go wrong going wrong in the worst way. 

I hope other cities have studied this incident so , um, 'difficult' groups can be dealt with fairly but still have the main population comfortable and safe.

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By the way, shouldn't we at OT.com all take the same last name, like the members of MOVE? I like the name "Duluth".

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 (Edited)

Sluggo said:

I saw a documentary on this on the telly about 2 years ago. 

It is really a strange and tragic incident of anything can go wrong going wrong in the worst way. 

I hope other cities have studied this incident so , um, 'difficult' groups can be dealt with fairly but still have the main population comfortable and safe.

I would hope so as well. 

vote_for_palpatine said:

I was 10 at the time. Does that make you feel:

a) Older?
b) Younger?
c) The same?

c.


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vote_for_palpatine said:

By the way, shouldn't we at OT.com all take the same last name, like the members of MOVE? I like the name "Duluth".

um, no.


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Yeah, you're right, Warb.

It should totally be Skywalker.  Did you forget you're on a Star Wars forum?!  Do we have to start RP-ing?

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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we are not changing our names to Skywalker. 


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...

Are you coming on to me?

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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could we please try to keep this thread serious? 


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Sorry, sorry.  It is a serious topic, and I did go read about it after I read your first post.  I'm glad you enlightened me to this.

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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yeah, is it a day which I and others from my area will never forget.  I feel people from outside the Delaware Valley should know about it and learn from it.   It is a tragic day in Philadelphia history.  


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well, it seems no one wants to have a serious discussion about this.   I'll wait a little while longer.   If a serious discussion doesn't begin soon,  I'll take back my request to keep this thread serious.   I was however waiting to hear from Ferris,  I'd be very interested to have cop's opinion of this. However what will be, will be.   If nothing further is said, I will take back my request to keep this thread serious. 


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Warbler said:

  I was however waiting to hear from Ferris,  I'd be very interested to have cop's opinion of this.

I'd be interested in his take on it also.

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Just read up on that. Jesus... it sounds like Waco Texas.

Group of people with politically unpopular views. Overwhelming lethal force in responce to minor problems.

Seriously!? Tear gas, water cannons and airborne bombs? Was this just some local politicians trying to live a Rambo complex or extreme hatred of Black people or what? What the blue hell can cause such a thing?

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One thing I can tell you:  the motivation for dropping the bomb was not racial.   The Mayor,  Wilson Goode,  made the call to drop the bomb.   Here is a pic of Mayor Wilson Goode:

the problems with MOVE were not minor.    As I said before, they had a confrontation with the police in 1978 and it resulted in the death of a cop.  These people were armed and had turned their house into a fortified bunker.   They had their neighbors living in fear(most of MOVE's neighbors were also black, and they all wanted MOVE gone).   MOVE was also not properly caring for their children.      I'm not saying the police handled this properly,  I'm just saying MOVE was major problem.

btw, just so Ferris knows,  I did not create this thread with the intention of attacking cops.   It was exactly 25 years after the incident, and I wanted to acknowledge it here and talk about it.   I was also curious how much was known about the incident outside my area.   


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Had no knowledge of this, happened before I was born.

 

Here's what wikipedia has to say, it seems a bit more neutral than your report, which seemed much more heavily critical of MOVE:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

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if you look at the beginning of my first post, I have a link to that wiki page and a link to coverage in detail of MOVE by the Philadelphia Inquirer.   I also said this:

Warbler said:

I urge you to click on the links above.   They tell the story more accurately and in more detail than I. 

 

 


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Warbler said:

if you look at the beginning of my first post, I have a link to that wiki page and a link to coverage in detail of MOVE by the Philadelphia Inquirer.   I also said this:

Warbler said:

I urge you to click on the links above.   They tell the story more accurately and in more detail than I. 

 

 

Sorry about that. I guess I just glanced over the links.

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no problem.  I've made the same sort of mistake before.     

its weird how so little is know about this event.  If MOVE happened today, it would be headline news throughout the country, and lead all of the Network News.  Stations like CNN and Fox would cover it like crazy.  


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I've been reading this thread since inception and have been studying the incident.

Surprisingly, I'd never heard of this until Warb made this thread.

At this point, I don't know what to think of it.