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2004 - Special Edition Return of the Jedi ending is a wtf moment

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I don't get it, should be more then enough anwser.

We see ewoks and everyone dancing around having  party after the death star is destoryed.

Then we see all the planets being free and no long under empire control.

 

Wait.................

 

What...............

Following the death of Palpatine at Endor in 4 ABY, an uprising took place on Coruscant. Billions of Coruscanti reveled in their newfound freedom, and an armed uprising sprang out from the nonhuman-dominated sectors. Imperial patrols were attacked in the streets, statues of Palpatine were toppled and other Imperial symbols were desecrated.

In the midst of all the celebrating and rioting, alarmed Imperial authorities ordered a massive crackdown on the rebellious elements in the city-planet's population and gave full power to the local military force to end the uprising and restore order to the system. The military retaliation was ruthless and the horrendous death toll rose as the Empire struck down the insurrectionists and brought the populace back under its control.

And the Battle of Bespin didn't happen for another few months.

 

Those people sure wouldn't be in the streets, cracking open yager bombs.

Geez, I can get over the whole thing with the dath vader ghost being replaced as it fits into the new series.

But those planets, and that music.

OMG

And if Lucas says these films are in fact the real story of what happen in the star wars fiction, then that throws out tons of work, novels etc..

Whats next Lucas going to say the Death Star II wasn't in the hand of a Droid planning, a droid revoult. ARGH

 

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We had this discussion indepth very recently. The conclusion was that the timeline you are refering to is EU, and that Star Wars, being intentionally an idealistic, fake, imaginary, fairy tale like setting, it is more than reasonable that the Empire crumbled instantaniously once their super weapon and leader had been lost. Also, apparently, 1980's EU supports the idea that the entire Galactic Empire came to an end the instant a singular man (their Emperor) was killed. If only the Rebels had known it worked like that, they could have sent several agents to infiltrate the Imperial City and take whatever actions necessary to kill Palpatine.

Rebel Agent one: Alright, jobs done. The Emperor is dead. I poisoned his steak, lol.

Rebel Agent two: Whooohoo! Job well done.

Rebel Agent one: Oh f***ing hell! Stormtroopers! We're so f***ed! What are we going to do?

Rebel Agent two: I don't know, looks like this is the end, pal. It has been a pleasure working with you... 

Stormtrooper Squad Commander: Hold it right there Rebel scum!

Stormtrooper Cadet: Look sir! The Emperor!

Stormtrooper Medic: We're too late. He's dead.

Stormtrooper Squad Commander: Dammit! (drops gun, rips off helmet and throw it in anger, kicks gun across room) Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! It's over! It's all over! We failed! We failed the Emperor! We failed the Empire! We failed the dream of unity, hardship, and war throughout the galaxy! May our children forgive us. Dammit! (Angrily walks out the door in defeat, peeling off his armor and throwing it in anger, piece by piece. Slowing, an entire squad of disheartened Stormtroopers begin taking off their own armor, revealing heart broken faces as they slowly turn and walk away from their fallen leader.)

Rebel agent one: What... the... f***?!

 

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Return of the Jedi would have kicked so much more ass had it ended like that!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I see where your going with that.

For one reason the hamster in my head snap after watching the SE edition back to back this weekend.

 

That is all..

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Just to be clear, I am agreeing with you, warwon. I think it is dumb. And while I was not a huge fan of the trilogy ending with a song that includes the words, "Yub nub" and "celebrate the love", I am even less fond of the ridiculousness of the abrupt end to the Galactic Empire just because their decrepit old leader bites the dust. Surely they had some plan in motion in the event of his death. Even a Sith Lord has to die sometime.

However, in the previous discussion, I was out numbered by those who thought the EU was crap and Star Wars worked better featuring The Amazing Instantaneous Crumbling Empire® (just kill the Emporer and add water and have your very own crumbling empire in mere seconds! Adult supervision required.)

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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warwon said:

Geez, I can get over the whole thing with the dath vader ghost being replaced as it fits into the new series.

I can't. That was a travesty.

The empire ending after the death of the emperor is the way a lot of people understand the end of ROTJ, including before the SE and back in 83. It's in the ROTJ novelization too. The last words of the novelization are "The empire was dead. Long live the rebellion."

 

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C3PX said:

Just to be clear, I am agreeing with you, warwon. I think it is dumb. And while I was not a huge fan of the trilogy ending with a song that includes the words, "Yub nub" and "celebrate the love", I am even less fond of the ridiculousness of the abrupt end to the Galactic Empire just because their decrepit old leader bites the dust. Surely they had some plan in motion in the event of his death. Even a Sith Lord has to die sometime.

However, in the previous discussion, I was out numbered by those who thought the EU was crap and Star Wars worked better featuring The Amazing Instantaneous Crumbling Empire® (just kill the Emporer and add water and have your very own crumbling empire in mere seconds! Adult supervision required.)

You weren't outnumbered. But you admitted you were mistaken and claimed to see my point of view. Nor was it an issue of whether the EU was crap or Star Wars worked better with an instantaneously crumbling empire. The issue was whether the original intention back in 1983 was that the empire ended after Palpatine's death. As for the EU, the point was not that it was crap. The point was that it was just the EU and that the 90s EU was doing a revisionist take when it had the empire continue in a major way after ROTJ. 

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What about all Lucas talk about the next 3 movies after Return of Jedi, thats what I mean. He has said more then once that he planned more movies with luke, then in a interview a few months later he says the opposite.

 

It just really bugging me

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Vaderisnothayden said:

You weren't outnumbered. But you admitted you were mistaken and claimed to see my point of view.

 

The Libyans! Oh, my god, they found me, I don't know how, but they found me. RUN FOR IT MARTY!

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Even in the original ROTJ version without shots of all the planets celebrating... you still have the problem of that massive fleet of Star Destroyers just fleeing after Death Star 2 explodes.

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Well in the EU, we know the Empire Strikes back again.

 

And after ROTJ in the EU atleast the Rebels have a few major battles ahead of them.

 

 

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OzoneSherrif said:

Even in the original ROTJ version without shots of all the planets celebrating... you still have the problem of that massive fleet of Star Destroyers just fleeing after Death Star 2 explodes.

 

 Proof, please.

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The Imperial Fleet regrouped and repaired near Annaj following the battle; several days after the defeat, Admiral Prittick notified the rest of the Empire of the crushing defeat. Presumably by that point, Prittick assumed command of the Fleet, however temporarily.

 

Following the Battle of Endor, Captain Gilad Pellaeon ordered the defeated Imperial fleet to retreat to this world, which was nearly two days distance traveling at Class One Hyperdrive speeds. The fleet spent several days regrouping and repairing at the planet.

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I was hoping for something actually in the movie.

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I believe Adywan says he has something special planned that justifies the celebrations.  That will be interesting to see.  What could we put into RotJ to justify the instant celebrating?

A live TV crew ship flying around the battle, streaming a live feed to every planet in the Empire? ;-)

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It turns out the Jundland wastes, plains of Naboo and Bespin are all actually different parts of Endor. 

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Sluggo said:
OzoneSherrif said:

Even in the original ROTJ version without shots of all the planets celebrating... you still have the problem of that massive fleet of Star Destroyers just fleeing after Death Star 2 explodes.

 

Proof, please.

 

uh.... the fact that the Battle ends at that point?

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Sluggo said:

It turns out the Jundland wastes, plains of Naboo and Bespin are all actually different parts of Endor. 

What about Coruscant?  Also part of Endor, OR THE PLANET ENDOR ORBITS?

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warwon said:

What about all Lucas talk about the next 3 movies after Return of Jedi, thats what I mean. He has said more then once that he planned more movies with luke, then in a interview a few months later he says the opposite.

 

It just really bugging me

 

That's not movies about fighting the empire. That's movies about running the new government and stuff like that.

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OzoneSherrif said:

Even in the original ROTJ version without shots of all the planets celebrating... you still have the problem of that massive fleet of Star Destroyers just fleeing after Death Star 2 explodes.

 

Well presumably you're supposed to assume they surrendered after the death star fell, just like the rest of the imperials in the galaxy.

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Don't look for logic. This is the film in which teddy bears with sticks and stones defeated armored soldiers with high tech weapons. They stopped fighting because the trilogy was to end with a happy ending with the bad guys defeated and the conflict over.

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I am going to look for logic though, because I want a bit of logic in all things. So Darth Vader can choke people without even touching them, where is the logic? Well, it is explained that he taps into a magical energy known as the force. That is good enough for me.

Most things in Star Wars had some kind of logic behind it, why should logic suddenly go out the window as soon as the Emporer dies?

(I agree, the Ewoks defeating the Imperials with sticks and stones was no logical, and it has always bothered me. But the Rebels are out there fighting too, so it can be reasoned that the Ewoks were more of a distraction than anything. Ultimately, the whole Ewok battle is a very minor part of the whole trilogy. The Han rescue was the other bit of the that was devoid of logic.)

I consider the logical lapses of ROTJ to be a major black mark on the trilogy. I'd like to assume the Imperial fleet simple retreated when they realized the Executor and the Death Star were lost. That would be a perfectly logical thing to do. No sense in waiting around to be dealt more damage. Why impose more illogical nonsense on the poor film by making assumptions when the end is left pretty vague?

I also don't believe the film needed a happy ending where the Empire was entirely defeated. The other two films didn't end that way. Movies about war can still end on a happy note even if the war doesn't end with the film.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I am going to look for logic though, because I want a bit of logic in all things.

Mistake. Not everything goes by logic. Certainly not ROTJ. 

Most things in Star Wars had some kind of logic behind it, why should logic suddenly go out the window as soon as the Emporer dies?

Logic was never the number one priority with Star Wars and it was certainly a lower priority than wrapping up the story with a happy ending. You know, you can find plenty logic holes in ANH and ESB. The imperial stormtroopers have this fancy armor and it's no good against the most common weapon in the galaxy. They always miss. Why the hell are these morons employed by the empire? Because Star Wars isn't terribly concerned with logic.

(I agree, the Ewoks defeating the Imperials with sticks and stones was no logical, and it has always bothered me. But the Rebels are out there fighting too, so it can be reasoned that the Ewoks were more of a distraction than anything. Ultimately, the whole Ewok battle is a very minor part of the whole trilogy. The Han rescue was the other bit of the that was devoid of logic.)

No, the ewoks were beating the crap out of imperials quite well by themselves. We saw it onscreen. The ewoks weren't just a distraction. We saw them do plenty damage to imperials. The ewok battle was not a minor part of the trilogy (I'm sure you wish it was). It was a significant event in ROTJ. And the ewoks were beating the crap out of the imperials. Big sign that ROTJ wasn't as interested in logic as you are. You think the Han rescue was also illogical. Fine, another sign. If the first part of the film and the middle of the film are both illogical, why is it so hard to believe that the ending wasn't concerned with logic either?

Let's remember, if the ending was concerned with logic the ewoks would be getting pelted with debris from the destroyed Death Star and there would be no room for celebration.

I consider the logical lapses of ROTJ to be a major black mark on the trilogy. I'd like to assume the Imperial fleet simple retreated when they realized the Executor and the Death Star were lost. That would be a perfectly logical thing to do. No sense in waiting around to be dealt more damage.

Perfectly logical, fine, but we're not operating in the realm of logic here. You're insisting on logic in a fiction where logic is not the priority. You're coming at ROTJ the wrong way. You're in conflict with the film. Which should come as no surprise, considering how much issues you have with the film. I don't consider ROTJ's lapses in logic to be any sort of black mark, because I accept it and Star Wars as what they are. You however are not accepting ROTJ as what it is. You want it to be something different and you want the ending to be different from what it was. So you're trying to convince yourself it was different.

Why impose more illogical nonsense on the poor film by making assumptions when the end is left pretty vague?

The ending of ROTJ wasn't left vague. There was a clear emotional message of the war and the conflict being ended. Very different from the end of ANH.

I also don't believe the film needed a happy ending where the Empire was entirely defeated. The other two films didn't end that way. Movies about war can still end on a happy note even if the war doesn't end with the film.

You're forgetting you're talking about a trilogy of fairytale kid films here. That sort of film needs a fully wrapped up happy ending and it got such an ending. The conflict was over so the story could be wrapped up neatly. As Baronlando said, it was a fairytale ending. And they lived happily ever after. The other two films didn't end that way because they weren't the end of the trilogy. And ROTJ was less logical than the other 2. ROTJ wasn't a "movie about war". It was a fairytale kids' film.

I'll remind you that on the other thread you told me that your view was wrong and mine was right. To quote:

Vaderisnohayden, this conversation is not worth wasting so much time on. We could go on forever. Obviously I am wrong. I was very young when ROTJ came out, and I obviously misunderstood it, and honestly, who can blame me since it was an unfinished version of the film I grew up with. George's original vision all along was to shows the entire galaxy celebrating the end of the Empire, but it simply wasn't possibly due to technology limitation of the eighties.

I get where you are coming from, and understand what you are saying. I concede that you are right, I am sure that was George's original intention to have the Empire be 100% finished at that point, the story is just a hell of a lot more interesting to me if this isn't the case. Just as Star Wars is a lot more interesting to you if Hayden is not Darth Vader.

Also, a very good post by Zombie on the topic:

zombie84 said:

I agree--logically, the ROTJ ending makes no sense; yet emotionally, it was always quite obvious to me that the message conveyed was that the Empire was defeated, and good guys won. I mean you practically could have had

"And they lived happily ever after"

when the iris closes on the final shot. Thats the point--thats the message you get. They can't live happily ever after if ROTJ just amounts to a strategic victory, the message throughout the entire movie, emotionally, is that "this is the final battle--it gets decided tonight", which is why all the sacrifice and basically putting your eggs in one basket approach (ie send the entire Alliance in a last-ditch battle to destroy the death star). 

Personally, i never considered that there was the Empire out there, and I never knew anyone that did either--the film says "the good guys won, the Empire is defeated." Certainly that is what Lucas was trying to convey, and I think it largely worked, even if it doesn't work in a real-life setting, but then Star Wars has always been full of logical holes like this. While we are contemplating why the Rebels are celebrating what is only a strategic victory, we might also be contemplating how they can be celebrating on a planet that should be having nuclear winter.

 

Btw, on the set of ESB lucas said that in the next film the empire would be finally defeated. Add that to the 83 novelization saying the empire is dead and the SE scenes saying it's over and the EU before Zahn's revisionism treating the empire as over. Yeah I think Lucas's intention in 1983 was for the empire to be over.

 

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I see the end of RotJ and the instant galaxy-wide celebrations as more of a symbol then what actually would occur. And Im sorry but SE hater or no the new music is soooo much better than that ridiculous yub-yub celebrate the whatever garbage, you know it and I know it. Come on. You know its better.

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