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2004 DVD crap-o-la — Page 2

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

5) The new Emperor scene in Empire is entirely better than the old one, dialogue, performance, everything about it is better now.

The opening crawl states Vader is obsessed with Skywalker. He launches thousands of probes across the galaxy to find him and follows his instinct that "Skywalker is with them," launching a full ground assault on Hoth -- based on a picture of a shield generator. He sends the bulk of the Imperial Fleet into an asteroid field after the Millenium Falcon all to find Skywalker. You think it's good dialoge when, after all this, he he is surprised to learn about "The offspring of Anakin Skywalker?" You think, after all this time, expense, and yes, mentioning Skywalker by name, he says "How can this be?" is better than the old dialogue?

What grade are you in again?
Vader is playing dumb to the Emperor as much as the Emperor is playing dumb to Vader.

I'm 35 years old.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Vader is playing dumb to the Emperor as much as the Emperor is playing dumb to Vader.

Oh, come on...

That goes against both of their established characters and the fact that Vader has been the Emperor's faithful servant for over 20 years by that point.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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A faithful servant doesn't tell Padme that he can overthrow him and then they could rule the galaxy together.

Anakin always planned on using the Emperor for his own ends and then discarding him, just as the Emperor plans on using his apprentices for his own ends and then discards them.

With Luke entering the picture, Vader had "A New Hope" of being able to finally take Palpatine out of the picture, which is why he gives a similar pitch to Luke (as he had given Padme) on the gantry in ESB. Between ROTS and ESB, Anakin was a shell of his former self, and didn't have the power to destroy the Emperor on his own.

Palpatine also sees Luke as the apprentice he had hoped Vader would have become before he lost all his limbs and needed a respirator to survive.

"How is that possible?" = "Hey I wasn't looking for him already to help take you out, honest!"

"Yesss. he would be a great asset" = "As soon as I convert Luke, you're ass is grass Vader"
Your focus determines your reality.
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hmmm... I still prefer my original interpretation of the scene, which deals with the original (superior!) version of the scene. Vader has half the freaking fleet searching for Skywalker. He hasn't been hiding that from the emperor.... The Emperor calls him up to say, "hey, that Skywalker kid you're hunting? He's our new greatest enemy. Kill him." That's when we see the first streak of the "good still left in [Vader]." Vader has compassion on the son he never knew (or perhaps second thoughts about being so evil?), and , on the spur of the moment, essentially says, "uh...kill him?....hmm.......HEY! we could turn him to the dark side! That'd be better than killing him, right?" So, he's able to evade the Emperor's order by swaying him, using his own greed for a new, potentially more powerful apprentice. It's only then that Vader comes up with the idea of getting Luke to join him and take over the galaxy from his master. It was NOT his plan all along. In my mind, before the PT, Vader turned because he was seduced by the dark side. He believed in the Emperor and trusted him blindly once he turned. It was when the emperor ordered him to kill his own son that Vader doubted his master & that flicker of good left deep, deep down inside him sparked for a short moment. And once it sparked, it slowly smoldered, without Vader even realizing it most of the time, until by the time Luke turns himself in at Endor, it has become a tiny flame. & of course, watching his son die at the hands of the emperor ignites that flame into a raging fire where Anakin finally defeats Vader once & for all, destroying his evil master in the process. To me THAT is the story arc of Darth Vader, not what we were presented with in the PT. The whiny "Mannakin" who's always planned on turning against his master from the get go just doesn't compare to the dramatic impact of the story of someone who totally falls for & believes in something that is basically evil incarnate, only to realize once it's too late that they've been mistaken, & then over come that power in one final act of ultimate bravery & self sacrfice.
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I can see that.

But I do think you get a fairly similar dynamic from the prequels when you look at it from the perspective that Anakin embraced evil after falling down a slippery slope of good intentions that left him feeling like he couldn't go back.

I mean sure he starts out ESB looking for Luke with the intention of overthrowing the Emperor, but it was only to replace Palpatine as dictator.

He had gone to the dark side to save Padme, and it cost him his very humanity. After she died all he cared about was controlling the galaxy to make it the way he wanted it to be. He became more machine than man, even his thoughts were mechanical and without heart.

So then Luke enters the picture and shows Anakin an example of love and compassion that wakes up that spark that starts to grow inside Vader's helmet until he finally does the right thing at the end of ROTJ.

I personally like it better with the idea that Vader and the Emperor are so evil, they can't trust each other.
Your focus determines your reality.
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He became more machine than man, even his thoughts were mechanical and without heart.


That's a nifty idea & works well. I still think that having Vader not trust the Emperor (at least before he's ordered to kill luke) works against the story. The emperor is his master. He taught Vader the dark side powers. I see their relationship much the same as a relationship between a martial arts master and his student. The student doesn't follow a master/teacher who he doesn't trust/believe. I still find it to be a more powerful story for Vader to have betrayed his best friend (OB1) on order to follow an evil master who he really believed in, only to find out decades later that this master really IS evil, & he really DID make the wrong choice. At this point, Vader has an internal struggle that mirrors his turn to the dark side in that he must once again turn on his master and defeat him. Only this time, he succeeds. (after all, OB1 did beat him down, even before the PT came about).

That's a much more dramatic tale than the story of an apprentice who never really trusted his master & always had a desire to overthrow him - there's not nearly the same internal struggle going on. & there's not the parallelism of it mirroring his original turn to the dark side. After all, recurring themes is a big part of Star Wars. In my version (or the original version, if you like....), it's a huge battle for Vader to make that decision to kill the Emperor. He's been through this once before. He trused this man & looked up to him. Now he has to make the same decision again in his turn back to the good side as he made when turning to the dark side. His actions likewise parallel in making the choice to kill his master whom he once would trust to the ends of the galaxy and back. That is just so much better than what we were given in the PT! Now Vader isn't struggling so much in ROTJ. He's just taking advantage of the opportunity to do what's he's been planning on from the get go. *yawn*. No real drama there. No internal struggle. I think i'll keep my OOT version and so "no thank you" to the "saga".
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Yeah but that would have taken the choice out of Anakin's hands. I think it was important that his turn to the dark side was a conscious decision on his part, not just him being tricked.
Your focus determines your reality.
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well, he was seduced by the darkside. besides, it would still be a conscious choice to turn. Seduction merely means he was tempted by the power and possibilities of the dark side. It's still a conscious decision whether to give into that temptation or not. I know my choice of words might not have been perfect, but the idea was never that he believed the dark side, or the emperor, to be good. He made the choice to be a "bad guy" & knew it. When i say that he believed in the emperor, i mean just that. He believed in the power & the teachings of the emperor. Vader didn't see himself as a pawn, but as a loyal disciple of sorts. He trusted his teacher. Nowhere does that imply he was tricked into being evil. that was his choice. where he was tricked was in believing that the emperor actually cared about more than what Vader could do for him. That he actually cared about Vader & his progress, etc. etc. I'm sure Vader expected to be the emperor's heir, so he was essentially a father figure. It's when the emperor told vader to kill his own son that he began to doubt his master. after all, if the emperor would have him kill his own son, what did the emperor really think of him? Was Vader disposable too? surely not! But he get's his final confirmation of this in the throne room in ROTJ when the emperor commands Luke to destroy his father & take his place by the emperor's side. That's when Vader finally knows that he really was just a pawn. & that's when, with the help of Luke's compassion and faith, he is finally able to overcome himself and turn back to the good side.
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Yeah, I agree with canofhumdingers's interpretation of the scene. It makes Vader willfully evil to follow the Emperor. It just doesn't make any logistical sense to follow him for an entire generation if all he's really doing is waiting for a chance to overthrow him because he doesn't like what he's done with his life. If he was that unhappy with his decisions, he should have abandoned the Empire or simply killed himself.

And the new scene makes no sense because, as others have pointed out, Vader knew about Luke. He made it no secret that he knew about Luke. The Emperor wasn't calling up Vader to say, "Oh, yeah, by the way, your son is alive." That's common knowledge. Vader wasn't exactly discrete about this information, so it seems unlikely he was trying to keep his search for Skywalker a secret. The point of the call was to inform Vader of the increasing threat. Yeah, Luke destroyed the Death Star. Yeah, he's a key figure in the Rebellion. The Empire needs to get its revenge against him. But now Luke is becoming stronger in the Force. That's the great disturbance. He is becoming a threat, not just to the Empire at large, but to them personally, and to the Sith. He was about to get additional training. That's the purpose of the call. Not to establish family ties or to waste time with some very obvious (to them) family connection. That's just a silly way to (re)interpret the scene, and it's obvious George wasn't thinking too hard when he re-wrote the dialogue, otherwise he would have realized that it doesn't make sense.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

Sure it's not perfect. But I say it's still closer to perfect than they ever were before.


But it was perfect before, and didn't need all that B.S. additions to it. If Lucas cleaned up the picture and spruced up some effects, 99% of the fans wouldn't have a problem with the SE. Gomer it is the scenes that just stick out of these classic movies and DIDNT need to be changed. We didn't need Hayden in ROTJ, we didn't need Greedo shooting first, we didn't need Vaders arrival in ESB after leaving Bespin, we didn't need Jedi Rocks, etc. The movies were already great and defined movies even in todays standards, and you only fix something if it is broke, the O-OT was such a success, why **** with it?

I constantly hear SE & PT fans say, "Sure, it isn't perfect....." Well, for me the O-OT is perfect, and of course that is my opinion, but that is why I love it so much, there is nothing that bothers me where I have to make excuses for. I just feel if you have to trot out the line, 'nothing is perfect' then that tells me you see the same flaws I do.

If Lucas would have just released every DVD version with the O-OT/SE together in the same quality, nobody would have a problem, but the more Lucas tightens his grip on the O-OT and tries to kill it, the more fans will walk away and put their hands up.

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If you truly feel the O-OT is perfect, then that's your view and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way. It is because taste is subjective that I am for maintaining the original versions almost as much as the rest of you are. Sure I would still get by with the newer updated versions and be happy enough, but I truly want to see the fan base together again. To have everyone rise above their own personal points of views to see the multitudes of other views out there and to be able to accept and appreciate all of them for representing the unique points of view each one of us has to offer.... From a certain point of view (somebody stop me! )

I think it would be a whole lot easier to get to that point if the fans who prefer the originals had their favorite movies too. If you guys can be happy about things, it wouldn't be so hard to get along with the fans who love the new ones too I think. I keep talking about the anger I see here towards Lucas, and I think it really isn't about hating his point of view as much as you hate feeling left out in the cold by the very franchise you loved the most in the first place. I got upset when I saw someone say "Lucas talks crap in Variety, would sell his dead cat for $5". But now I realize that it's more of a running joke to put Lucas down in as sarcastic a way as possible than some kind of actual hate towards Lucas.

To me the whole saga is greater than the sum of it's parts. I think Mark Hammil was a bit hammy in places, Carrie Fisher's acting was hit and miss, Harrison Ford's acting doesn't seem as good to me in ROTJ. There are technical errors (artifacts from the special effects), continuity errors, convenient plot points (Lucas to all the characters: Come on who wants to be related to Luke next?).

To tell you the truth, I felt that before the prequels, Leia being Luke's sister was a cringe worthy way to tie things up in ROTJ. Watching Vader suddenly pull his goodness out of his ass at the last moment made good narrative sense, but I felt it was a bit thin. You know like "oh Darth's good again and we can all go home now".

With the prequels, I feel Leia being Luke's sister has a lot more to rest on than it did before, which sort of legitimized that development in ROTJ for me. In the same way, seeing who Anakin was before he became Vader has made his return to the light side one of my very favorite moments in the whole saga.

As I look at this as a whole saga, for me it makes better sense to have Hayden in as the Force ghost, because to me that says it's the good part of Anakin that had remained, and not that part of him that had become the twisted wreck of a man known as "Darth Vader". Sure Shaw was the face he saved Luke with, but to me it just visually represented what he had become more than it represented what he used to be.

You say he didn't -have- to put Hayden in there and you are right. But then again Lucas didn't have to make Star Wars in the first place if you get right down to it.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Yeah, I agree with canofhumdingers's interpretation of the scene. It makes Vader willfully evil to follow the Emperor. It just doesn't make any logistical sense to follow him for an entire generation if all he's really doing is waiting for a chance to overthrow him because he doesn't like what he's done with his life. If he was that unhappy with his decisions, he should have abandoned the Empire or simply killed himself. Anakin became Vader because he was at a point where he felt the Jedi and the Sith were both just as bad in this whole mess. He never denies the evil of the Sith, he merely says that from his point of view the Jedi are evil. Then he talks to Padme about how he's going to overthrow the Emperor. To Anakin the ends justify the means. To him what he is doing is ultimately for the greater good of the galaxy. After Padme dies, his all-consuming passion is to control the galaxy himself so he can make it "the way he wants it to be". He has entirely convinced himself that it's a good thing he's doing. So even as he is being evil, he never makes one of those evil laughs of someone who relishes being evil (as the Emperor does), his tone is one of self-righteousness. As for killing himself, that's just not in his character to let things go. He couldn’t let go of his mother, he couldn't let go of Padme, he certainly wasn't going to let go of his self-proclaimed crusade.Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
And the new scene makes no sense because, as others have pointed out, Vader knew about Luke. He made it no secret that he knew about Luke. The Emperor wasn't calling up Vader to say, "Oh, yeah, by the way, your son is alive." That's common knowledge. Vader wasn't exactly discrete about this information, so it seems unlikely he was trying to keep his search for Skywalker a secret. The point of the call was to inform Vader of the increasing threat. Yeah, Luke destroyed the Death Star. Yeah, he's a key figure in the Rebellion. The Empire needs to get its revenge against him. But now Luke is becoming stronger in the Force. That's the great disturbance. He is becoming a threat, not just to the Empire at large, but to them personally, and to the Sith. He was about to get additional training. That's the purpose of the call. Not to establish family ties or to waste time with some very obvious (to them) family connection. That's just a silly way to (re)interpret the scene, and it's obvious George wasn't thinking too hard when he re-wrote the dialogue, otherwise he would have realized that it doesn't make sense.
In ANH Vader senses Luke in the trenches of the Death Star. In his quest to find out who was strong in the Force within the Rebellion, word got around that Skywalker was the name of the rebel who destroyed the Death Star. Vader was out in the field with first hand access to this information and yet it's a newsworthy piece of information the Emperor thinks he's giving Vader. It's not like Vader found out the name was Skywalker and he started blabbing about it, the imperial officers came upon that information and whether Vader talked about it or not it was going to get to the Emperor eventually. The title crawl for ESB talks about Vader's obsession with finding Skywalker. As soon as he found out the name Skywalker was involved, he knew it was potentially his own offspring, and that gave him renewed hope in being able to finally overthrow the Emperor.

But when the Emperor calls him up and says: "The guy we are looking for is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker" Vader can't just say: "Yeah, I know, um didn't you get my text message about that?"

He plays dumb so as not to raise suspicion about his loyalty.

To me this makes perfect sense. And it seems to be the dynamic that was already there in the classic trilogy to begin with (once Lucas settled on making Anakin Luke's father of course). Vader told Luke about how they could join forces and end this destructive conflict. When Luke wouldn't join him, he saw him as he saw Obi-Wan. If Luke wasn't with Vader, then he was his enemy. After Palpatine tells Luke to strike Vader down and take his place, it suddenly all clicks for Anakin. Suddenly he remembers how he was in Luke's position back when he decided to kill DooKu. He see's Luke's example of self sacrafice in the name of what was right, and his compassion was re-ignighted. It was at this point that he realized that what he had been doing was extremely selfish, and it's at this point he is able to let go of his sense of self and do what's right for his son and by extension the rest of the galaxy at large.

I don't know how many of you have played the Episode III video game, it isn't the best, but it's the best depiction of lightsaver combat I've seen so far. The duel sequences are really a lot of fun. Anyway, if you beat the game (spoilers I guess) you get to play the final duel again as Anakin, and if you win, they show a cinematic where Anakin manages to fly over Obi-Wan high enough that he doesn't take his limbs off and immediately stabs Obi-Wan in the back as he lands, making Kenobi fall down the lava beach to perish.

He leaves him there and goes up to greet the Emperor who was just landing in his shuttle. The Emperor gives Vader his lightsaber that he uses in the classic trilogy, and after accepting it, he immediately kills the Emperor with it, and the troopers all freak out for a second until he announces that it is now his Empire.

Sure it's just a game, but I think that plays true to Anakin's character as portrayed in the prequels. It's not that he's a good guy when he kills the Emperor in this alternate sequence, he's just taking control like Palpatine did before him.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Sorry, I prefer the 2004 Editions and probably will like the 30th Anniversary Editions as well. I think that's a little arrogant on your part when you make statements such as "no self respecting fan could love the 2004 editions". While the only movie I was alive to actually see was Return Of The Jedi at the time, I grew up on the OOT, loved every minute of it. Then the 1997 Special Editions came out, which I only watched once. For some reason I never really bought those because I had some friends that let me borrow it anyways. Then when Star Wars finally hit DVD I picked them up and thoroughly enjoyed them. Mind you, I also have a few things that I would change about these 2004 Editions but I think everyone would in the long run, find something that they would change.

In the end though it comes down to respect. I've found most people here do respect the fact that really it's not about what Trilogy you prefer but it's about the fact that you enjoy that same story regardless. It's just statements like "you must have been blind to like the NEW Star Wars" or "you're not a real fan" which piss me off. Hey, guess what? I was around to enjoy Star Wars for quite awhile before the Special Editions came out and I still prefer them. Sorry about the rant everybody....but I've been frequenting a board with some real prick "holier than thou" attitudal OOT fans.
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I think the SE's, while not perfect, are heads and shoulders above and beyond the quality of the O-OT.


Which is good for you, the problem is that we can't get a high quality release of the OOT. And I'm going with Gomer here. Vader or the Emperor would easily kill the other if they could and rule in the other's place.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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nevermind

I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.