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1977-->1993: What?!

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Hate to make another new thread (as in another thread being made... I haven't made any others on this issue myself), but I just thought of something. It was something we used to discuss a few weeks ago, before the dark times, before the non-anamorphic news. But since the news that these are going to the masters used for the 1993 Definitive editions... how in the world is that possibly going to match up with their initial claim that these movies are the original theatrical versions? Obviously, in the 16 years that had passed, we know all kinds of changes had taken place. Yet Lucasfilm claims that these are the original theatricals. But what about the title crawl? What about Aunt Beru's voice? I don't know about you, but I think if these aren't really the theatrical versions, THAT is the bigger issue than whether or not it's an anamorphic transfer (not that it's not important). They never promised us an anamorphic transfer. They DID, however, promise the theatrical versions. And if they don't live up to that, then we have a serious problem and a definite case of false advertising.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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You know something? That's a very good point there...

1993 masters = "A New Hope"

The plot thickens.
For as much as some people claim to hate what Star Wars has become, they sure seem incapable of shutting up about it.
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I've heard random comments around here lately about them digitally removing the A New Hope part, but that reeks of... um, not-original. And I've always heard that the formatting of the words had to be revised in order for the timing to work out once they added that little bit, so just digitally painting over that is definitely not the solution. I'm getting worried, and I hope that's just fan speculation. With any luck, that original crawl is what they "exhaustively searched" for, because it's apparent they haven't exhaustively searched for anything else.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Thats a good point. Isn't there a legal thing about that kind of stuff and movies on home video?!?!?!?. Cuz if there is then LFL WILL have to give us film transfers!
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I'm thinking they're just gonna splice in the original crawl


That I can live with. The 1993 sound elements (especially Beru's voice) still trouble me greatly, though. Of course, I've come to expect the worst with this. Tack on the crawl from somewhere, though... I mean, where? It had to come from a print of the film somewhere. I see three options with that. If it's a good print of the film it comes from, I don't see why they'd use the Definitive masters over it. On the other hand, it could be a crappy film print, which would make sense to think they'd only use that section of it because they had to. In that case, they'd have to clean it up to match the rest of the film. Or, the more logical solution given the entire shoddy handling of this release, they won't clean it up, as per their comments (even though it's only about a minute's worth of footage), and it will stick out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the movie.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Darth Richard
Thats a good point. Isn't there a legal thing about that kind of stuff and movies on home video?!?!?!?. Cuz if there is then LFL WILL have to give us film transfers!


If I had to guess (DISCLAIMER: and this is purely a guess, with no real concrete knowledge) I'd say that the fact that these are considered "Bonus Features" will exempt them from a lot.
For as much as some people claim to hate what Star Wars has become, they sure seem incapable of shutting up about it.
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With any sense, the two different crawls will both be presented using multi-angle encoding. It's been part of the DVD spec since its inception, and it's how Lucasfilm already handles the French and Spanish crawls in the R1 releases.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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The original crawl was transfered to video for the Empire of Dreams doc. So i imagine they will just be splicing it on. It is also claimed that we are getting the original audio so perhaps the original audio is being dug up and synced to the picture--or, hopefully not, simply the laserdisk's stereo track. In any case though, this is really a "simulated original version" since its not from the actual 1977 print.
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The original 1977 print was destroyed wasn't it? Used like the trashy and rough film source that it was to make the superior 1997 SEs?

I wonder how anyone could have done something like that deliberately, even if it were George Lucas. If true, it means that any future restoration of the original film will need to be pieced together from other sources to recreate the original film. Oh joy.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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My other question that comes up is the Alien language subtitles. Will it be in the black portion which will disaapear when zoomed? Or will it be within the frame of the picture as it was in the theater?

The plot thickens indeed.
There's good in the Original Trilogy, and it's worth fighting for.
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
http://www.myspace.com/harlock415
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It's already been confirmed, to my annoyance, that it will be in the matte rather than the actual picture. There was some interview referred to in the making of the '93 transfer that stated they had to go back to original elements before the subtitles were "burned in." I really prefer the subtitles in the actual frame. It just doesn't seem right to me that they should be outside elements that are digitally inserted in a black void that's not at all part of the movie, and that's the one thing about all my DVDs that I just have to do my best to ignore.

EDIT: I missed part of your question. On a 16x9, it most likely will be in the frame of the movie, even though it's still not actually part of the film element. On a standard TV, it will definitely be in the matte.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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This is the first thing I thought of when I saw that "1993" comment by Jim Ward and knew that we'd be getting the DC masters on DVD. These most certainly are not "theatrical" versions in respect to the audio, which was remixed and remastered at that time, and in the case of Star Wars, a completely new mix was created. I guess most people aren't even aware of this, or just don't care. Personally, I don't really have a problem with the 1993 sound mix, I actually like it very much. Of course, I'd like to have more audio options, including original audio tracks, but I just don't see George ever giving us that much.

As for the crawl, I'm sure they're just splicing it in as others have already speculated. It's kind of funny, this version of Star Wars will really be a completely new version created solely for this release. Theatrical, eh?

Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The 1993 sound elements (especially Beru's voice) still trouble me greatly, though.

Why would Beru's voice trouble you? The voice heard in the '93 mix is the original voice. The alternate voice appeared only in the mono mix, which was the last of the original theatrical mixes to be released.

The Starkiller's Guide to the Mono Sound Mix

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Really? I'd always been told that the original voice had not been heard since the early theatrical cuts.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Mono mix had "Voice A."

EVERY OTHER release had "Voice B." Including the 1993 remixes.

None of those "voices" was Shelagh Fraser's.
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That's correct. The ADR heard in the '93 version was present in the original stereo version. which is actually an earlier mix than the mono.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but the '97 mix (to my ear) sounds like a different recording than EITHER of the two ADR jobs. At least part of the ADR is different in the SE (presumably carried over from the 70mm?). It is definitely more similar to the stereo ADR than the mono ADR, however.

But yes, if they use the '93 audio, then their claim that this is the original version of SW as seen in '77 is false. Of course, their claim in '95 that SW was presented in the original version was also false (it contained the "ANH" crawl).

If they made false claims before, I don't see why they can't do it again.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I knew that Shelagh Fraser's voice was never used. I meant the original dubbed voice. You've already answered that, but I wanted to avoid looking like I had no idea what I was talking about.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Rebel Rouser
Originally posted by: Darth Richard
Thats a good point. Isn't there a legal thing about that kind of stuff and movies on home video?!?!?!?. Cuz if there is then LFL WILL have to give us film transfers!


If I had to guess (DISCLAIMER: and this is purely a guess, with no real concrete knowledge) I'd say that the fact that these are considered "Bonus Features" will exempt them from a lot.


damn them
And none of the original prints were destoryed for the most part. Alot are in archives that LFL can't control and GL has his own set. But he will never admit that.
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When I said the "original" voice, I meant the original dubbed voice, of course. Beru's voice was always dubbed. I figured everyone already knew that. You can compare both versions by clicking the link in my sig.
Originally posted by: Trooperman
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but the '97 mix (to my ear) sounds like a different recording than EITHER of the two ADR jobs. At least part of the ADR is different in the SE (presumably carried over from the 70mm?). It is definitely more similar to the stereo ADR than the mono ADR, however.

It's the same as all other home video versions. They did add an odd delay for the SE when Beru says "He has too much of his father in him." They delayed "father." I guess so it would sync better, but it sounds odd.

The Starkiller's Guide to the Mono Sound Mix

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I'm sure they'll use the Empire of Dreams crawl. As has been discussed extensively elsewhere, any one of three mixes could be called "theatrical", so it's impossible to satisfy everyone on that without using all three, which won't happen. The '85 mix would be the best compromise, IMHO, but it'll probably be the '93 mix that is used.
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When I said the "original" voice, I meant the original dubbed voice, of course. Beru's voice was always dubbed. I figured everyone already knew that.


Yes, I did, and I already said I did. I just didn't clarify what I meant when I said original. But I think I will check out that link in your sig, as I've never heard the alternate voice.

EDIT: Been to your site. Awesome! Very informative.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
It's already been confirmed, to my annoyance, that it will be in the matte rather than the actual picture. There was some interview referred to in the making of the '93 transfer that stated they had to go back to original elements before the subtitles were "burned in." I really prefer the subtitles in the actual frame. It just doesn't seem right to me that they should be outside elements that are digitally inserted in a black void that's not at all part of the movie, and that's the one thing about all my DVDs that I just have to do my best to ignore.

EDIT: I missed part of your question. On a 16x9, it most likely will be in the frame of the movie, even though it's still not actually part of the film element. On a standard TV, it will definitely be in the matte.
That's a good point, when I saw "hero" in theatres I was so distracted by how low they had placed the subtitles. I suppose you can fix this yourself with a DIY job. I always prefer "burnt-in" subtitles to "player-invoked" ones too...
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Originally posted by: The Starkiller
When I said the "original" voice, I meant the original dubbed voice, of course. Beru's voice was always dubbed. I figured everyone already knew that. You can compare both versions by clicking the link in my sig.


I can't hear shit on your sig man?!

And also, you guys shouldn't even know this much about this sort of shit.





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