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.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *) — Page 2

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"What format is the raw capture in? Is it mpeg2"

No. It is raw, uncompressed AVI. It's the best state the master can be in , which is why it is 80 Gbs. It will have to be compressed to MPEG form to fit a DVD-9 (much less for a DVD-5).

"if yes, is it watchable? meaning does it require any color correction or anything like that"

It will need color correcting, but not much.

"going from an 80gig file to a 8.5 gig dvd isnt that gonna require alot of compression, thereby reducing the quality significantly? Would anything else be done with prior to putting it on a dvd"

Uhm, this is how all DVDs are made. Regardless of the quality of the master, the final product still has to fit on a DVD - unless you want it on two or more, a la Lord of the Rings or Das Boot.

"sorry for any of the real newbie-ish questions"

No problems...keep askin'

"but its a SATA version don't know if thats any good for you?"

Ooh, that's a good question. You might want to look for an extra controller just in case (I have to use PCI controllers in both computers, because the onboard bios won't go beyond 137 GBs. My second controller includes SATA along with the ATA.)

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I have no problem with SATA drives in any of the sizes they are currently available in.

OK, Darth Simon, mebe has answered most of these already, but I will address them anyhoo.

1) The RAW capture is actually in AVI format using the huffyuv codec. This is a lossless compression codec (kind of like .zip or .rar for normal files) so you at least get some creduction in the file size, but with ZERO quality loss. Otherwise the movies would be between 180GB-250GB each!

2) It is watchable on a PC right now with media player etc. But they are really *raw* captures. What I mean by that is that each side of the laserdisc is in a separate file, and has a lot of black etc. at the start and end of each file. So although technically it is watchable, in reality it isn't yet what you would call an enjoyable experience. At the least you would want to trim the tops and tails off each segment and rejoin it into one single 80GB file for your viewing pleasure. It also needs to be converted back to 24 frames per second progressive to look any good on a PC, as if you watch it now you see the NTSC interlace scanlines.

3) Re colour correction etc. In theory even as is, it will look better than watching the original laserdiscs on say a pioneer 701, or any sony player etc. But in reality it can look better with a colour grade, this will make the film a little more vibrant (the US laserdiscs were a bit 'washed out') and get some consistency into some scenes where it is currently lacking. On a normal TV it won't be an OH MY GAWD difference, but it will be noticably better. On big sets the lack of noise and MPEG2 induced artefacts will make it a *lot* better than the current bootlegs out there as well. Remember though at the end of the day it is a laserdisc source, what this version does is extract the best possible image from the laserdiscs, but its still laserdisc. So really, DVD viewers will finally get the same or better experience as the laserdisc viewers.

4) DVD-9. Well yep, you lose some quality jamming it down to 8.5GB from 80, but for 90% of the population this is the only way they can play it. The truth is, that once you crop out the black bars to make them truly black (So that data isn't wasted on them) and use a high quality multi multi pass VBR encoder, the differece will be very small indeed, and will look the same to all but the pickiest of eyes. However if you can playback from a PC hrough a projector, the huffyuv file will probably have a slight quality edge.

5) Putting it onto DVD would be the last stage of most individual projects I would imagine. You would keep it in uncompressed format until you had finished making adjustments. So after you have tweaked the colour to your liking, fixed any frame glitches, and perhaps fixed some special FX if you wanted, then you would put it on DVD to enjoy in your loungeroom.

Thanks for the questions DS, it probably cleared up stuff that other people were wondering, and helped get my priority list in rder as well

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If an owner of a Pioneer CLD-2950 could capture a frame from the NTSC definitive LD for me (The same shot as on my site) it would be most appreciated. I want to see how the NTSC of the 2950 should look. Mine seems - well - wrong.
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If it's of any assistance at all, I can cap the NTSC DC (or Faces, or the Japanese Faces) on the 925, or a 504 or a Denon LA2300. The only advantage being you know what cap card I'm using, and they'd all be consistent in that regard.
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If you could just capture that one frame from the DC with the 925 it would be most appreciated!
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I think we should sort out just exactly which frame that is! How many frames before/after the next cut? I'm sure I'm in the ballpark, but if we're going to get super-picky about colours, smoothness, sharpness, etc., etc., in a 500% blowup, we really should make sure it's apples and apples we're comparing.

I mean, shouldn't we?

(I'll make the caps tomorrow evening -- so about 22 hours from now).
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You pick a frame, and I'll match it (i.e. I can't bloody remember and won't be back for a while, so it will be easier for me to match yours)
All I am really trying to tell here is if my newly acquired 2950 is working to spec.
Norinrad, I'd love it if you could do one also - a compare of the 2950 vs 925 would also be useful. (capture issues aside for the moment)

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I'm on it,

i'll tell you guys this is getting like an addiction for me I should be producing a flash site for a client but the lure of the perfect LD/DVD conversion is just to much!

I think I need 48hr days


Pioneer 2950 NTSC Capture pic


http://home.clara.net/superfly74/NTSC_2950_DV.jpg
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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Mebe & Laserman, thanks for the info.

good luck on your projects and keep up the good work, ill be looking forward to a dvd version of the X0 captures.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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You say you captured in sports mode. How do you plan on capturing your final product?
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I'm afraid that's pretty much it, unless it is completely unfixable. Please keep in mind that the LD player in question was located in Northern Europe, making such logistics difficult and expensive.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Laserman, I attempted to reply in this thread yesterday - at around this time, however Maxthon crashed. So here is my more thought out reply.

Firstly I'd like to thank you for your dedication to creating the cleanest LD capture without alterations (such as fixing sabre effects, removing matte-lines, etc). Does this also mean preserving the Prologic soundtrack in uncompressed PCM?

The clarity and consistency you have achieved through the X0 player is simply amazing. The quality and detail in that capture, the lack of grain and haloing make it comparitable to DVD quality. You have got to the point where you no longer see the limitations of the LD format, but rather the limitations of the source it was copied from. With that said, some faint haloing is still visible. The bottom picture is wider? One of them has been stretched, or squashed...?

The Leia cap, while I'm sure looks great too you - looks far too synthetic, like it's a wax painting or something. The clarity and detail in it are excellent, though. If you going to mod a player for capturing the PAL discs, would it be possible to mod an NTSC unit (ie the X0)? I realize it doesn't have native capabilities to output a PAL picture, but with the right resistors and a compatible PAL-TV chip to rout through instead of the NTSC chip, would it work? When you put a PAL LD into it now does it try and play the movie? Does it get as far as reading the data on the LD and feeding that into the NTSC chip (if it did it would presumably output a garbled picture)? Because if so then I would think it'd be rather simple to mod it to PAL. Though, and this is probably obvious to you LaserMan anyway, if you were to do that you'd want to make damn sure you got those NTSC caps right before trying to mod the player.
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I believe Laserman's on vacation for a bit, so I'll answer the easy things and he can fill in the gaps and make any corrections when he returns.

Does this also mean preserving the Prologic soundtrack in uncompressed PCM?

The X0 cap is to HuffYUV, so presumably the audio's in the raw AVI as PCM, yeah.


some faint haloing is still visible. The bottom picture is wider? One of them has been stretched, or squashed...?


The haloing is there in the source. I've got just about every SW LD known to man, and it's there on all of them. The width and stretching and squashing is all pretty immaterial -- that's what LanczosResize was made for.


If you going to mod a player for capturing the PAL discs, would it be possible to mod an NTSC unit (ie the X0)?


Already being discussed (by me, with Lman and MBJ, for example). If it's even possible (and it may not be), this would be mighty tricky for several reasons:

1) the player's not Laserman's -- it's "12,000 km away", I believe he posted
2) in order to do any mods, you need the service manual
3) I've never seen an X0 service manual, and believe me, I've looked
4) I suspect the X0 service manual would be in Japanese, because it was only ever a Japan-only player (lucky I lived in Japan, eh?)
5) even many people at Pioneer North America are unaware of the X0, so there's not a ton of help available, even from what is probably the largest NTSC-speaking branch of Pioneer outside Japan

I'm sure Laserman could (will?) add a few more trouble spots.

One thing I do notice is that Laserman's appeal for funding of this project (either in cash, or gifts-in-kind) has fallen on deaf ears -- at least in this thread. Seems to be a large population waiting to get their hands on an X0 cap, but a lot of shuffling of feet and looking the other way when some help is requested in return. I'm not blaming; I'm observing. I would estimate that those of you who don't own an LD player (let alone two or more, looking for a great one) or any LDs (let alone several, looking for the best ones) don't have much idea of how difficult, time consuming, and expensive assembling all these great source materials is. I'm on player number three, and have nine copies of the entire trilogy on LD -- that's about 60 LDs (or 120 sides) to cap. That's the result of scouring eBay and Yahoo Auctions in about four languages for almost two years, and figuring out ways to buy and ship stuff from five or six countries -- including from those xenophobes who are unwilling to ship something outside their own country's borders. (Incidentally, despite my living in Canada and speaking English, I've found US sellers are pretty much the worst in this regard.) So when Laserman asks me, "Can you cap this frame from PAL on a 925 so we can compare?", I can supply it. He could also ask for caps from any other SW LD, PAL or NTSC, and I could do it. But that facility hasn't come cheap or been easily won.

As I re-read this, it sounds vaguely rant-y. It shouldn't (except for the xenophobic American sellers part). I'm simply trying to point out what sort of investment and procurement gymnastics have to go on (and have gone on) in order for this project to get where it's going. That Laserman is willing to make the X0 cap available at all is sort of a surprise to me -- I think I'd be very tempted to hang onto it myself and let someone else who wants an X0 cap do it his or her damn self like I did.

Laserman isn't the only one who could do what he's doing. You could, too. Ah, ha-ha -- no arguments; I said, you could, too. The difference between Laserman and you is that he's doing it (and from scratch, no less) and you are not. There is more than enough info out there for you to do pretty much exactly what Laserman has done, and you even have an idea of what path to follow and what the results should be like (unlike some of the dead ends Laserman may have already faced; I know I've hit a few). If you're not really willing to attempt it yourself, then I ask why you think Laserman should supply his hard-earned results to you for free instead? A rhetorical question to chew on. "The phone lines are open; operators are standing by..."

Mmm... sleep. That's where I'm a Viking!
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"The X0 cap is to HuffYUV, so presumably the audio's in the raw AVI as PCM, yeah."

I already have a copy of the digital PCM. That was never an issue to begin with. Getting the best video was the goal here.

"One thing I do notice is that Laserman's appeal for funding of this project (either in cash, or gifts-in-kind) has fallen on deaf ears"

Actually, I have had one person contact me in regards to this. As this project is going to happen regardless, funding would simply move up the time-table for the release (though I could think of a few special things that donators would receive. )

And just a reminder, Laserman simply procurred the transfer. Zion and myself will be making the DVDs from this transfer.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Karyudo, it is daunting reading those kinds of replies. I do appreciate some of what you said, however for the main part you're talking from an assumptive point of view. I am glad to hear you have thought about moding an NTSC player, I don't generally agree with you on the complexity of moding it, I do only have a limited knowledge of electronics - however the concept is fairly simple. Yes you may want to mod a more expendable NTSC player.

However, for arguments sake - if the LD player does in fact actually read PAL discs correctly as is (which it may well do, I'm not sure on that though - mainly because I don't understand all the technical qualities of LD's and if the reading system for NTSC-only is different to one for a multisystem or PAL LD player), that means the only thing you need to change is the output signal. You would do this (to the best of my knowledge) by changing the frequency from 60hz to 50 (using a resistor). That in itself may well output an NTSC-50 version of PAL- which is not a standard signal, but may be usable as is. The next thing you would need to do is pass the data through a PAL chip instead of an NTSC chip.

Now theoretically, IF laserman desoldered the current NTSC chip NOW and then put a PAL chip in its place, you would have a hybrid player that plays NTSC discs but outputs them as PAL-60. This would give some increase in quality over standard NTSC on it's own, because the PAL system has better use of colour - and laserman knows that. That modification on its own would allow you to achieve a higher quality capture than is currently available through the player. The only thing he would then have to modify for playing PAL discs is the frequency, which can be done with a resistor. You could then tack on a dipswitch so the player is permanently multi-format (it would always be a PAL signal, though). Now this is all in theory. Now you are right, in that it may not be possible to make it play PAL discs anyway. However it should be relatively simple, and safe to modify it to output a PAL picture, and as that is more than half the modification in itself (which improves the player anyway by allowing it to use PAL's better colour system), maybe it is a feasible option.

Funding, well as I would have explained in my original post I am unable to help in those regards right now. I did provide LaserMan with TR-47's discs, and I could provide him with anything else I happen to come across. If anyone wants to send Laserman discs, and will send them straight to me instead, I will send laserman copies (for free), which would save LaserMan sending me discs instead. Also, I don't have any equipment, or money to buy the equipment needed to undertake the task myself. I do appreciate the involvement, commitment, time and money it takes to undertake such an assignment.
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I don't mean to sound daunting; I mean to sound realistic.

I hope I don't sound like too much of a jerk when I suggest that if you really wanted to help, your time, rather than being spent writing highly-theoretical posts, would be better spent tracking down schematics and highly-experienced electronics nerds. My post was made after seeing the service manual for the Pioneer CLD-D925, and after poring over the schematics for a while, and after tracking down pinouts and spec sheets for some of the (now-obsolete) ICs inside the 925. I'm not sure what you expect, but there is no yellow-highlighted trace labelled "Perfect Video" and a big dot labelled "Tap Here for PAL!!".

It's great you're enthusiastic, it's laudable that you want to help, but at some point mere theoretical second-guessing doesn't add much to the equation. I'd be the first to jump onboard with your ideas, if they hadn't already been thought up elsewhere first. Oh, that's just me being modest: you can check out my post in the ultimate LD thread. So rest assured, we've got top men working on it now. Who? Top men.

I have read hundreds of posts in dozens of threads here at OT.com during my getting-up-to-speed research phase, and, although I arrived here at OT.com a little late to get involved in any recent unpleasantness and thus have no personal grudges, I know you must be aware you have rubbed some people the wrong way. Posts such as yours in this thread may threaten the fragile ceasefire that seems to prevail at the moment, and that may send some long-time members with lots to offer away for good. I would suggest that is not a great position for someone with no equipment or funding to find himself in. Please tread gently.
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"So rest assured, we've got top men working on it now. Who? Top men."

LOL....excellent reference.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Wheres the info for donating to help Laserman?

is there a paypal link?


My work drive has just gone tits up so I can't sent my new one but maybe some cash via paypal can someone in the know let me know?

Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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norinradd, don't risk putting your email address in public. Just PM Laserman, and he'll get back to you when he's off vacation.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Thanks for the info Mebe, its not my real email addy but i have removed it
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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MeBe is right, spam bots will pick up your emails if you post them for all to see. Apparantly Laserman is on vacation, and probably won't get back to you right away though.
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Karyudo, I sent Laserman a PM about a donation. But he hasn't responded yet. Hopefully he'll be back when soon.

Also, If I had time to make an excellent set of DVD's I WOULD IGNORE AND DENY THE F'ING JERK SH#T-HEAD "DANIELB" ANYTHING I MADE. I Suggest the @sshole that has almost chased off Zion and MBJ be denied ANYTHING HE WANTS and simply be told to F-OFF!!!
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Give him time. He can't stay away from us for long.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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@Daniel: Wow -- we joined up about the same time, but you obviously catch on quicker than I do!
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I just thought I'd drop into an internet cafe and see if anything was new, and got to read DanielB's posts here and in Mverta's thread as well.

1) DanielB, your comments are rude and ungracious at best, and divisive, inflammatory and unfathomable at worst. You go on about mverta not being a part of the restoration, when you are not a part of anything - except a destructive force.

2) I have no problem with you hypothesizing weird and wonderful theories about laserdisc players, but when you bag out others who actually have *some* knowledge of how these things work, and have actually spent real time and money and initiative to research *factual* possibilities, it is going beyond what is acceptable really. From your comments you obviously have no idea how an analogue laserdisc player works, and absolutely no concept at all of the internals of an X series player. Suggestions are fine, ideas are fine, but kicking other people's when you actually don't know anything is just not cool.

3) Please get it thorugh your head here that no-one is *really* involved in film preservation here. N-O O-N-E. The AFI has preserved the original films - it is done. These forums are about people trying to convince Lucas to release the OT on DVD and about people trying to get something close to an OT available for the masses if that doesn't work. The laserdiscs are NOT the OT as it was seen in theaters, so lose that notion and do everyone a favour.

I have had a policy of trying to be level headed and reasonable and to attempt to take the time out to answer any questions/suggestions here, no matter how misguided, but I can't deal with the nature and tone of your comments anymore, or the way you hijaak threads like mverta's. Your views are your own and that is OK, but to go preaching them into threads that you *know* are about the work of people that you don't agree with is just warlike and ungracious. These people spend a lot of their own time and money on this stuff because like you they love the films, but unlike you have the balls and drive to try to do something about it - and you shit on them. Its your right in a 'free speech' society, but it is also others rights to be able to do the same to you. That doesn't mean it is a responsible or nice thing for you to do though does it?

I've spent over 5 grand, and who knows how many months/years of my time in the quest to get the OT available in the best form possible (as GL has obviously decided not to), other people have put in similar or greater effrorts, and your posts (whether intentional or not - it doesn't matter, because this is the actual result) make us want to throw our hands up and walk away. They really really do.
It only makes it seem more exasperating when you don't even try to do anything yourself or support others in any meaningful way.

On another note, mybreak from this has made me look at it all again. I was really doing this because I thought there was a massive interest in seeing the OT in great quality on DVD here. (You know, 60,000 signatures and such), but the interest shown by people here has come to the sum total of 3 people (outside of karyudo, zion, adigitalman and mebejedi) that have any interest in the X0 version. I have had a total of 2 offers for financial support.

So it looks like the obsession was mostly misplaced, and mostly mine, and does little in reality than upset people like DB, and keep me away from my family, so I've decided enough is enough, and going on the tiny amount of interest, I don't think it will matter anyway, and my family will be happy to see me at night again.

To the two people that offered support, I'll burn you a disc if and when I ever finish it, and you can have it for free. I may do it in pieces for my own amusement later on, but consider the X0 project closed - I just don't need the grief, and the interest doesn't seem to be there anyway.

To Karyudo, thanks so much for your committment and all your help. I'll be in touch when I get back re our other stuff - it will be much more fun anyway, and we will definately do that stuff.
To AdigitalMan, Mebejedi, Silverwook, Zion and others I have forgotten at the moment. I'll be in contact via e-mail - thanks also for your support, feedback and groundbreaking work. To the two or 3 people that offered help, thank you also it was much appreaciated.

I probably won't be back here, I think the battle is lost, and not many people really care much anymore, or at least not enough to do something practical about it, and to me that is the definition of caring - Taking action that may be difficult/expensive/unpleasant in the interest of something you love.

Goodbye all, and thanks for a wild ride.

-Peter (laserman)

T