I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.
Which scene are you referring to?
ROTJ at Jabba’s palace when Luke force chokes the pigmen to gain access.
There are a few people here who believe Luke was using a mind trick to make them go to sleep.
Which I’m incredulous at…though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Ahhh…I forgot about that. I think the pig guard put his hand up to his throat, didn’t he?
I think I’m in the "yes, Luke used the ‘force choke’ " camp. 😛
I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV
Luke used the force to aim at the Death Star exhaust port (Ben told him “use the force, Luke” and then he turned off his targeting computer).
Yeah well I thought he just basically relied on his instincts, just like Anakin in Episode I, not used the force to literally aim the torpedo etc.
I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.
Which scene are you referring to?
ROTJ at Jabba’s palace when Luke force chokes the pigmen to gain access.
There are a few people here who believe Luke was using a mind trick to make them go to sleep.
Which I’m incredulous at…though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Ahhh…I forgot about that. I think the pig guard put his hand up to his throat, didn’t he?
Quite.
Someone (can’t remember who) claimed he put his hands over his chest, which was apparently meant to show they’re going to sleep.
Lol.
Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.
When was this lightsabre fight?
In TFA.
You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…
Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…
Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.
No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.
She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.
As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.
Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.
If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.
Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.
The ‘balance’ in the force is a theme (and it’s interpretation) that has run through the films. That light rises to meet darkness or darkness rises to meet the light is hardly anything new in TLJ - or underdeveloped previously.
Not really IMO. Lucas’ interpretation of balance is, that the Sith are like a cancer and bring the Force out of balance, and their destruction will restore balance. I never really liked this, and felt is was pretty vague, but that still doesn’t present a precedent for just anybody instantly getting Jedi powers, because there’s a dark side Force user running loose in the galaxy in my view.
(posted before your edit to include IMO and a dark side force user running lose)
Yes. Really. It is what has occurred onscreen - whether you like it or not - felt that it was pretty vague or not, or stating that it’s not a precedent is nether here nor there. It happened - and ran through the films.
I can see why there has been much circular debate and repetition in this thread given people’s ‘certain point of view’ and selective choosing of what has happened - or not - onscreen, as a reason for not liking certain characters, plots and quality of films.
I’ll leave it there - wonder woman indeed.
I disagree. Lucas has explained what balance means in his films, and despite the vagueness of the references jn the films, that’s what it represents, because the creator states it is such.
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.
DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.
I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.
Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.
Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.
Sure.
Must have missed where he said that.
You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.
“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”
If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.
Sorry I should have added a smiley face to that comment as it was sarcasm. I believe Luke did force choke the pigman. If you go way back in this thread, I started the conversation in regards to what Luke could have done to Kylo as projection.
I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.
Which scene are you referring to?
ROTJ at Jabba’s palace when Luke force chokes the pigmen to gain access.
There are a few people here who believe Luke was using a mind trick to make them go to sleep.
Which I’m incredulous at…though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Ahhh…I forgot about that. I think the pig guard put his hand up to his throat, didn’t he?
Quite.
Someone (can’t remember who) claimed he put his hands over his chest, which was apparently meant to show they’re going to sleep.
Lol.
I went back and watched again. It does look like he may of caused a 'Force Heart attack" to one of the pigmen. That would be a bada$$ Jedi move.
DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.
I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.
Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.
Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.
Sure.
Must have missed where he said that.
You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.
“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”
If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.
Those statements certainly are inconsistent. I focused on specifically what Matt.F was taking issue with in his comments. In one was an actor’s misunderstanding of a term and in another an actor’s view of his character. No reason to get a bee in your bonnet.
The blue elephant in the room.
DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.
I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.
Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.
Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.
Sure.
Must have missed where he said that.
You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.
“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”
If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.
Sorry I should have added a smiley face to that comment as it was sarcasm. I believe Luke did force choke the pigman. If you go way back in this thread, I started the conversation in regards to what Luke could have done to Kylo as projection.
Fair enough.
Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?
The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.
I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV
Luke used the force to aim at the Death Star exhaust port (Ben told him “use the force, Luke” and then he turned off his targeting computer).
Yeah well I thought he just basically relied on his instincts, just like Anakin in Episode I, not used the force to literally aim the torpedo etc.
Well, Ben does tell Luke to “act on instinct” when he’s doing the lightsaber/remote training. But I always interpreted that as a technique to quiet negative thoughts and tap into the Force.
DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.
To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.
The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.
But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.
At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.
Okay, then why are we arguing? To use your own argument, those statements are at odds with one another. And I’ll dismiss anything you say to justify it.
Does the Darth Sidous reference annoy anyone else? I wonder if there is a take with Mark Hamill saying “The Emperor” instead.
It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher
Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?
The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.
How do they show such a journey?
Does the Darth Sidous reference annoy anyone else? I wonder if there is a take with Mark Hamill saying “The Emperor” instead.
It annoys me too.
Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?
The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.
I think it lazy to point at Rey and exclaim, “Mary Sue!” as if that concludes the discussion. We should discuss it in substantive ways. That said, I think showing an emotional journey of self growth has not been well portrayed in these films. There have been moments here and there but not in a coherent way.
The blue elephant in the room.
The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.
But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.
At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.
Okay, then why are we arguing? To use your own argument, those statements are at odds with one another. And I’ll dismiss anything you say to justify it.
Cool story, other than the fact that I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. But that’s ok because I don’t care. For the millionth time, the Mary Sue debate is endless, pointless, and worthless.
Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?
I have this beautiful dream, where poverty and war and hunger are all eradicated, and “Mary Sue” is never uttered. But I think it’s a ridiculous dream because the last one is impossible.
Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?
The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.
How do they show such a journey?
I am not going to explain these movies for you.
The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.
But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.
At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.
Okay, then why are we arguing? To use your own argument, those statements are at odds with one another. And I’ll dismiss anything you say to justify it.
Cool story, other than the fact that I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. But that’s ok because I don’t care. For the millionth time, the Mary Sue debate is endless, pointless, and worthless.
You said they were being unequally treated based on gender alone, which I disagree with. If you didn’t want to bring up that debate, then you shouldn’t have said that. Easy. But this is hardly the thread for serious discussion.
Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?
The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.
How do they show such a journey?
I am not going to explain these movies for you.
Thanks.
DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.
I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.
Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.
Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.
Sure.
Must have missed where he said that.
You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.
“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”
If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.
Those statements certainly are inconsistent. I focused on specifically what Matt.F was taking issue with in his comments. In one was an actor’s misunderstanding of a term and in another an actor’s view of his character. No reason to get a bee in your bonnet.
He was talking to me I think.
Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?
The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.
How do they show such a journey?
I am not going to explain these movies for you.
Thanks.
Nothing personal, but it’s all right there. I’ve had to explain the simplest things enough here, for my own sanity I’m done with it. Enough talking in circles.
The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.
But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.
At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.
Okay, then why are we arguing? To use your own argument, those statements are at odds with one another. And I’ll dismiss anything you say to justify it.
Cool story, other than the fact that I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. But that’s ok because I don’t care. For the millionth time, the Mary Sue debate is endless, pointless, and worthless.
You said they were being unequally treated based on gender alone, which I disagree with. If you didn’t want to bring up that debate, then you shouldn’t have said that. Easy. But this is hardly the thread for serious discussion.
Go back and read what I said again.
Does the Darth Sidous reference annoy anyone else? I wonder if there is a take with Mark Hamill saying “The Emperor” instead.
It annoys me too.
Yes. After all we know Darth is a first name not a dumb title.
