Raiders of the Lost Ark HDTV 35mm LPP regrade — Page 7

While I sympathise with the sentiment, there are a number reasons, I won’t be doing this:

1. It introduces a degree of subjectivity, which is something, I’m trying to avoid.
2. It will lead to endless debates on how a scene should look, which is something, I’m trying to avoid.
3. If I manually adjust one shot, I will have to adjust all of them, which adds a ton of work (as it currently stands it’s already months of work), which is something, I’m trying to avoid.
4. Doing manual adjustments is not my forte.

You should stop thinking like this. Instead of doing the DVD color version. You should match the print like you are now. and do an adjusted print to how “You think it should look” or a guess.

Nobody will be shooting you in the marketplace when you wave your sword about. 😃

I will say no more about it. I mean well, you know that 😃

I personally feel the compression artifacts of the WOWOW are less of an issue than the washed out detail of the bluray.

DrDre said:

Wazzles said:

DrDre said:

Wazzles said:

DrDre said:
WOWOW matched to 35mm LPP:

There’s an awful lot of artifacting in this one. Is there some way top avoid that?

Artifacting in what sense? Both the 35mm and the WOWOW are pretty noisy for this frame, and there’s a lot of color noise too. The foreground noise has been increased somewhat, while the background noise has decreased. I could use the bluray for this shot, which has much less noise, but also somewhat less detail.

WOWOW matched to 35mm:

Bluray matched to 35mm:

It doesn’t look like grain to me, It looks pixelated. It doesn’t quite look like compression artifacts to me, but it also doesn’t look right.

It can be improved somewhat:

Some of it is grain, but there are also compression artifacts in the WOWOW, as it is more compressed than the bluray (for example the sky in the original WOWOW frame). Some of these are made less visible in the regrade, while others are made more visible. I think this regraded frame looks pretty descent, considering the increase in brightness. For example, the sky looks much better for the regrade. The only alternative is to use the bluray, but I’m not too keen on mixing WOWOW frames with bluray frames, as the difference between the two is quite jarring, so you either go all wow or all blu.

Yeah, I don’t blame you. I think it is the compression artifacts I’m seeing.

DrDre said:

Wazzles said:

DrDre said:

Wazzles said:

DrDre said:
WOWOW matched to 35mm LPP:

There’s an awful lot of artifacting in this one. Is there some way top avoid that?

Artifacting in what sense? Both the 35mm and the WOWOW are pretty noisy for this frame, and there’s a lot of color noise too. The foreground noise has been increased somewhat, while the background noise has decreased. I could use the bluray for this shot, which has much less noise, but also somewhat less detail.

WOWOW matched to 35mm:

Bluray matched to 35mm:

It doesn’t look like grain to me, It looks pixelated. It doesn’t quite look like compression artifacts to me, but it also doesn’t look right.

It can be improved somewhat:

Some of it is grain, but there are also compression artifacts in the WOWOW, as it is more compressed than the bluray (for example the sky in the original WOWOW frame). Some of these are made less visible in the regrade, while others are made more visible. I think this regraded frame looks pretty descent, considering the increase in brightness. For example, the sky looks much better for the regrade. The only alternative is to use the bluray, but I’m not too keen on mixing WOWOW frames with bluray frames, as the difference between the two is quite jarring, so you either go all wow or all blu.

I think it looks fine. There will be some artifacts in the wowow simply because it was a TV broadcast. It actually looks very good considering. The Japanese have higher standards and broadcast in true 1080p unlike most US broadcasts which are 720p or 1080i. And I would stick with the wowow and not use the blu at all.

Yes, I guess the compression artifacts are something we’ll just have to live with. Here’s an improved version of that shot:

Dre, any idea why the framing is a little different in the WOWOW compared to the LPP? More specifically in this?

Shalashaska said:

Dre, any idea why the framing is a little different in the WOWOW compared to the LPP? More specifically in this?

The framing is always a little different, even in theatre projections. The bluray for example has a very different framing from the WOWOW.

I came across a book in a charity shop today bought it and I scanned these for you… Not sure if it’s much help but here you go.

I think they look very much like the 35mm colors, or at least it looks like what I remember the film looking like.

Hope it does help though there is a few more images in there but not many. It’s awkward to scan because it is quite a big book and the photo’s are small.

The colors for the Idol or golden fertility statue are a total match so It seems these are a good reference on the 35mm or taken from the 35mm

while I am here…

Thanks! They do look similar to the 35mm. The colors look very natural.

It’s a shame about the fake added dirt on some of the photo’s but, this about the last of it.

That sky in the top left photo…

But then the shot here seems to be from the Blu Ray or the 35mm is gone very yellow. The Book was printed in 2008.

This very well may explain why the Blu-Ray is so yellow. Because the first picture in this thread certainly looks right on the 35mm and it has that Blue atmospheric cool tone. Which you can clearly see in the Stone Ball rolling picture.

Belloq stealing the Idol from Indy also seems to have the yellow syndrome in the pictures where others do not.

(Certainly Reel 1 went yellow)

I Think it’s pretty safe to say that their print went yellow. Litemakr’s scan seems to have an issue with magenta and blue mainly… But it does seem that litemakr’s scan is a good if not better reference although like I said it’s not without faults but they are minimal.

Ronster said:

It’s a shame about the fake added dirt on some of the photo’s but, this about the last of it.

!

That sky in the top left photo…

But then the shot here seems to be from the Blu Ray or the 35mm is gone very yellow. The Book was printed in 2008.

This very well may explain why the Blu-Ray is so yellow. Because the first picture in this thread certainly looks right on the 35mm and it has that Blue atmospheric cool tone. Which you can clearly see in the Stone Ball rolling picture.

Belloq stealing the Idol from Indy also seems to have the yellow syndrome in the pictures where others do not.

(Certainly Reel 1 went yellow)

I Think it’s pretty safe to say that their print went yellow. Litemakr’s scan seems to have an issue with magenta and blue mainly… But it does seem that litemakr’s scan is a good if not better reference although like I said it’s not without faults but they are minimal.

Those pictures are mainly on set promo photos, not frame blow-ups from a print, so they aren’t a good reference to the 35mm. They are subject to processing by the photographer, marketing department and book publishers. I have a few examples of frame blow-up from the early 80s I used as a reference, but generally promo pics are not useful.

The shot of Belloq stealing the idol, for example, is not from the film. It is a posed shot taken by a stills photographer using film for a still camera. It was processed after the fact to be brighter and have different color than the 35mm ended up with. The same goes for the shot of Indy with the idol. Both shots were commonly used to promote the film in 1981.

Some of the truck chase shots might be from the film, but most likely from a digital source if the book was published in 2008.

The explanation for the blu-ray being orange/teal is because that was a trendy color scheme for action movies at the time. It tends to make things “pop”. It was an attempt to make the film look more modern and to better match Crystal Skull.

Sorry yeah you are right some of those photos are promo photo’s but some of them are not.

I watched the DVD yesterday and became aware of this then…

There is one photo of a deleted scene. That shot of the idol. That was when it’s animatronic eyes were meant to move. 😃

I hope the shots that are not promo photos are a bit helpful even though they are small.

What does that sky look like in the 35mm above the well of souls?

I seem to remember that electric blue sky. There is no lightning in that shot…

I am also curious about Marion and the mummy having a blue / turquoise tint. Unless it is a misleading book.

If it is Magenta in the 35mm you have then it is meant to be blue. The turquoise will probably be more pink rather than that jade turquoise. Going by what I have seen so far.

Magazines and books prior to the digital age almost exclusively used promo pics taken by stills photographers. That’s because they looked better than frame blow-ups from a print. The stills were processed by the marketing department and often didn’t look much like the actual scenes from the films. Even special effects shots were often specially created as promo pics and not directly from the film. There were a lot of those created for the Star Wars films. You would occasionally see frame blow ups in books or magazines focused on filmmaking, like Cinefex and American Cinematographer.

Starting in the digital age (DVDs), it became more common to see frames taken from a digital transfer (not from an actual print). But they were still subject to alterations in color by the publisher. So I really wouldn’t place much stock in those pics.

Here’s the sky from the LPP:

OldSchoolGamer1203 said:

The explanation for the blu-ray being orange/teal is because that was a trendy color scheme for action movies at the time. It tends to make things “pop”. It was an attempt to make the film look more modern and to better match Crystal Skull.

So that’s why. I’ve heard about this before. According to TV Tropes:

"Basic complementary color theory states that when two contrasting colors are put together, they “pop,” so the natural technique is to color films to have a strong, contrasting palette.

The one thing you will almost always have in a film is people. Human skin runs from pale pinkish yellow to dark brown, all of which are shades of orange. The color that contrasts best with orange is blue. So you turn up the shadows to the cyan end and the highlights to the orange.

Unlike other pairs of complementary colors, fiery orange and cool blue are strongly associated with opposing concepts — fire and ice, earth and sky, land and sea, day and night, invested humanism vs. elegant indifference, good old fashioned explosions vs. futuristic science stuff."

It’s not as big as it was back then, since it was trend like you stated, but I doubt Spielberg and even Lucas (shocking, I know) had this in mind when shooting Raiders back in the day. But if they approved the transfer, then I guess there’s nothing to do other than wish DrDre the best of luck.

It is shocking to me that Spielberg approved it. Not only because of the color changes, but because it is sloppily done. Color is inconsistent from shot to shot, contrast is reduced, gamma is all over the place, it’s over brightened, color is way oversaturated and there is heavy use of DNR. Some scenes look nice, but overall it is really a mess. Especially when you know how it is supposed to look. I find it hard to believe he is really happy with it. But most likely he never watches it. He has a state of the art cinema in his house, and probably only ever watches high quality prints of his own films.

OldSchoolGamer1203 said:

litemakr said:

OldSchoolGamer1203 said:

The explanation for the blu-ray being orange/teal is because that was a trendy color scheme for action movies at the time. It tends to make things “pop”. It was an attempt to make the film look more modern and to better match Crystal Skull.

So that’s why. I’ve heard about this before. According to TV Tropes:

"Basic complementary color theory states that when two contrasting colors are put together, they “pop,” so the natural technique is to color films to have a strong, contrasting palette.

The one thing you will almost always have in a film is people. Human skin runs from pale pinkish yellow to dark brown, all of which are shades of orange. The color that contrasts best with orange is blue. So you turn up the shadows to the cyan end and the highlights to the orange.

Unlike other pairs of complementary colors, fiery orange and cool blue are strongly associated with opposing concepts — fire and ice, earth and sky, land and sea, day and night, invested humanism vs. elegant indifference, good old fashioned explosions vs. futuristic science stuff."

It’s not as big as it was back then, since it was trend like you stated, but I doubt Spielberg and even Lucas (shocking, I know) had this in mind when shooting Raiders back in the day. But if they approved the transfer, then I guess there’s nothing to do other than wish DrDre the best of luck.

It is shocking to me that Spielberg approved it. Not only because of the color changes, but because it is sloppily done. Color is inconsistent from shot to shot, contrast is reduced, gamma is all over the place, it’s over brightened, color is way oversaturated and there is heavy use of DNR. Some scenes look nice, but overall it is really a mess. Especially when you know how it is supposed to look. I find it hard to believe he is really happy with it. But most likely he never watches it. He has a state of the art cinema in his house, and probably only ever watches high quality prints of his own films.

In this link here it states Spielberg worked from an original negative correcting the print and that Raiders is exactly as it was when released in 1981.

http://collider.com/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-steven-spielberg/

My theory is this is the transfer Spielberg approved for the Blu-ray release because whatever he worked on certainly doesn’t appear to be what the final result turned out to be. Maybe he kept the print for himself?

That article is about the 30th Anniversary restoration, which is the version we call the Wowow. The restoration was done by Laser Pacific from the camera negative, probably in 2010. It was shown in several cinemas around the US in the fall of 2011. I saw it twice in Los Angeles and it looked great.

That restoration was supposed to be the blu-ray release and in fact the early blu-ray trailers used shots from that version. The orange/teal re-grade was hastily done by Technicolor the following year prior to the IMAX and blu-ray releases in summer/fall of 2012. When I saw the IMAX screening I almost fell out of my chair because it looked so different (and much worse) than the version I had seen the previous year.

So it is somewhat ironic that Spielberg did a lot of publicity for that version and then allowed huge changes to it before it got released on blu-ray.

Just for comparison, here are some promo pics I scanned in from the 1981 Raiders Storybook and Raiders Book and Record. These are vintage, non-digital publications. All of these are posed stills taken during production. They use different film stock and lenses. You can see they are processed much brighter and possibly with slightly different lighting than the actual 35mm.

Taking these posed stills was a part of the moviemaking process back then. Today on set still photos are more focused on capturing behind the scenes shots, because publicity shots can be pulled from the actual digital movie master.

litemakr said:

Here’s the sky from the LPP:

Yes That’s it! in the DVD it is just grey (magenta tinged) clouds. That is why I guessed the 35mm would be the same but it seems it’s right sort of Blue / cyan color without any major tints which I am surprised about. Because I thought that the 35mm would closer reflect the DVD in this instance.

I have a feeling Marion and the Mummy skeleton is not that green color thinking about it. I don’t remember that. it was more sort of purpleish (not pink).

But the truck chase I really do remember those colors I shit you not. It had that greenish color really dirty when it was on TV in the UK. I distinctly remember that look with the cyan sky. And I watched that sequence so many times on VHS because I really liked the music and the action.

It’s nice to rattle the memory bells and yeah it’s obvious now the promo pics vs frames. are those frames 100% reliable I would say the truck chase definitely rings bells. And I also think Belloq at the top with the ark in a crate rings bells too (no yellow). Same for Nazi with the burnt hand looks familiar sort of color, Ball rolling Blue light yep I remember that.

And Electric Blue Sky above the opening of the snake pit.

I think that is really all there is to take away from those pics.

Ronster said:

litemakr said:

Here’s the sky from the LPP:

Yes That’s it! in the DVD it is just grey (magenta tinged) clouds. That is why I guessed the 35mm would be the same but it seems it’s right sort of Blue / cyan color without any major tints which I am surprised about. Because I thought that the 35mm would closer reflect the DVD in this instance.

I have a feeling Marion and the Mummy skeleton is not that green color thinking about it. I don’t remember that. it was more sort of purpleish (not pink).

But the truck chase I really do remember those colors I shit you not. It had that greenish color really dirty when it was on TV in the UK. I distinctly remember that look with the cyan sky. And I watched that sequence so many times on VHS because I really liked the music and the action.

It’s nice to rattle the memory bells and yeah it’s obvious now the promo pics vs frames. are those frames 100% reliable I would say the truck chase definitely rings bells. And I also think Belloq at the top with the ark in a crate rings bells too (no yellow). Same for Nazi with the burnt hand looks familiar sort of color, Ball rolling Blue light yep I remember that.

And Electric Blue Sky above the opening of the snake pit.

I think that is really all there is to take away from those pics.

The VHS, Widescreen LD and DVD were all created from timed low contrast prints, so they all have some level of authenticity. Some scenes were brightened and tweaked, but there aren’t wholesale color changes like the blu-ray. The wowow was sourced from the camera negative, so each shot had to be digitally graded from scratch, leaving a lot more room for changes. With that in mind, it’s mostly faithful, even if it’s oversaturated and too bright in places. The blu-ray (probably) took that base scan, made it even brighter, reduced contrast and inconsistently applied the orange/teal filters.

Still working on the opening shot for both the LPP and DVD versions. Both are challenging in their own ways, but I hope to be finished soon, such that I can make a short video sample, and continue with the rest of the film…