JediExile said:
This isn’t an issue with Finn being a good person or not. It’s an issue with the First Order. Imagine you’re a rising evil Empire. Now you’re abducting babies and preparing them to fight for you. You want to do evil things because you’re evil so you want your soldiers to carry out those evil things. You’d obviously prepare them for combat, but you’d also prepare them for following orders like “kill these innocent people” or “steal candy from this child”. If they fail to follow out those orders, reprogram them (the First Order is able to do that after all, they say it in the movie) or kill them and move on. If Finn is just a good guy, how did he even get through training? Do they not prepare their evil soldiers to be evil?I’m sure there would be many more defectors had they been taught at a young age that slaughtering an entire village is something that they’d be required to do from time to time.
Also the way that Finn puts up his blaster when the order to kill the villagers is given suggests he didn’t see it coming.
Once again, the First Order should train their soldiers for this. They are an evil organization, they are going to kill innocents. For this to come as a surprise to Finn is a little odd, it should be normalized to him. It makes no sense for Finn to suddenly get cold feet like he did. I’d like to make a correction though, he didn’t get cold feet when executing the villagers. You see him start to have issues when a random Stormtrooper dies and reaches for him. Which is even more weird in my opinion. Finn doesn’t even have a name at this point, is he unaware that he’s just another expendable soldier? Did the First Order not prepare him for people on his side dying?
Yeah except he didn’t do anything. She attacked him and got in his way,
Yeah, because she thought he was a thief. She also scolds Teedo about him trying to steal BB-8 and claims he doesn’t have respect for anybody. She has an inherent sense of justice. I see nothing wrong with that. Also how did she get in his way?
“Thief” may be understating the situation. BB-8 saw Poe’s X-Wing explode, he knew that his master was probably either dead, captured, or miraculously escaped. Now here’s this random dude coming along wearing your master’s jacket. The first thought that would come to mind isn’t “steal”, it’s “murder”. I’m not saying she was totally in the wrong here, but approaching him to talk to him before beating him might have worked too. What I meant by “got in his way” was chasing him down and beating him. He did nothing to deserve that.
Also, being a scavenger and saving a droid comes off as very weird to me. What’s a little more odd is Teedo actually let her take the droid, something which would have been worth a lot of meals. If I lived in a junkyard, struggling to get by with crap hauls, I’d do my best to make sure I get good parts or even a working droid to bring in.
she would have been “marked for death” anyways if she was found with that droid
True but that’s now how it went down thus her complaint was justified. Also it wasn’t even her who said she was marked it was Finn.
No, her complaint wasn’t justified. Finn did nothing to make her a target. She chased after him, attacked him, and then stood around to talk to him. Once again, the droid deserves the blame for not warning her he was on a dangerous mission.
Regardless of who told who she was marked by the Order, that doesn’t mean Finn is the reason she’s in danger. All blame lies on the droid.
If Finn wasn’t there and didn’t drag her away from those First Order troops, (guy saves your life and the first thing that comes to mind is to complain about him dragging your ass from danger, good shit Rey) she would have been killed. If Finn didn’t drag her away AGAIN when the TIE Fighters were doing runs on the Junkyard, (again she complains about her hand being held, I just don’t understand Rey) she would have been blown to pieces. If there’s anyone to actually blame for putting Rey in danger, it’s BB-8.
Couldn’t Finn just say run? Also the first time he grabbed her he held on for a time in which the hand holding wouldn’t suit any of them.
The line: “I know how to run without you holding my hand!” fits the situation perfectly.
The second time he grabbed her hand he could have said/yelled “run” too but he didn’t.
Yes, he could have said run and hoped she’d react fast enough to not be blown to bits in both situations. “What if” isn’t the point though, he saved her life twice while she was clearly unaware of the danger she was in for both situations. Yes, he did hold onto her hand too long the first time and she could have ran on her own at that point, but once again that isn’t the point. He was protecting her and holding her hand wasn’t hurting her so there’s no reason to yell at the person trying to save you.
Rey just beat Finn to a pulp and BB-8 was clearly not happy with him for having Poe’s jacket. The last thing I’d want to tell a girl that seems to have respect for Resistance and a droid whose master was just supposedly killed by the First Order is “I’m a Stormtrooper, please help me”. Once again, they just met. Caring about telling a little white lie to someone you don’t even know isn’t something to care about.
He didn’t tell her because he was ashamed of The First Order as he said in his speech to her when he was trying to leave the fight. Being ashamed of being associated with such a group is a sign of someone being good or at least changing into a good person.
My point on his feelings about him lying is a small one anyways, but even if his reason for lying to her was because he was ashamed of the First Order there’s no reason for him to actually feel bad about lying to her. It’s not like he told her something outrageous like “Ah yes Kylo Ren killed your father, From a Certain Point of View!”
He just met her and their chemistry on screen was really weak.
one word isn’t enough to convince me of Kylo’s opinion on Vader. If he actually does believe Vader was seduced by the light, then why bother asking his mask for help when Kylo feels pulled by the light? If he wants to idolize Vader for his achievements as a Sith Lord, fair game. But literally asking him for help in THAT situation seems incredibly silly.
And how would Kylo even form the opinion that Vader was seduced by the light? He didn’t know Vader and we don’t even know how he began to worship him. We do know that Luke trained him and we can assume that Luke probably told him about his grandfather, but that doesn’t explain how Kylo came to the conclusion that Vader turning to the light was bad. Kylo didn’t know Vader and Luke was the only one to hear his final words when he died. What other living person could even have a valid opinion on Vader aside from Luke?Hopefully this puts this debate to rest:
“Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgments. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.” Ren nodded once. “Sentiment.” “Yes." “Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life.” “Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment—had the father killed the son—the Empire would have prevailed.” "And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.” “I am immune to the light,” Ren assured him confidently. “By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced.”
^ from the TFA novelization.
No that doesn’t put any debate to rest because this is exactly what I should be finding out as I watch The Force Awakens, not when I go to Google information about the novelization. Just like I shouldn’t have to Google why there’s a Resistance and why the Republic has no military or find out from a random search of “TR-8R” that the nobody with the spinny baton was actually Finn’s squadmate and friend (Man Finn, your moral compass sure is on point. I wish I could casually watch my friends die, but break into a sweat over a random Stormtrooper dying and villagers I don’t know being shot).
If it’s not in the movie, it doesn’t work. If outside sources explain what the movie should explain to the audience that doesn’t mean the movie shouldn’t be criticized.
I didn’t need to Google anything for ANH to make sense or ESB or RotJ. I don’t remember being confused about character motives and personalities in any of the prequels enough to fill in the blanks with some book or a Wookiepedia page.