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Do they even exist anymore? (the unaltered theatrical version of the Original Trilogy)

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I speak of the original trilogy when I ask this - do they actually exist anymore?

I don’t know if Lucas has had his official bonfire yet (the one where he takes every last print of the films and does a Hitler with 'em). Some Lucasfilm guy said ‘technically they don’t exist anymore’. But I refuse to buy that statement personally.
I watched the “Empire of Dreams” documentary, and there’s what… the 77 crawl, beginnings and ends of shots (with clapboards and everything)… if they have ALL THAT USELESS stuff locked away in their archive - why wouldn’t they have the movies?

Just wondering if anyone knew if the movies had undergone ‘the chop’ yet.

VADER: Let me look on you with my own eyes...

LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0
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No one really knows for sure. There have been wild rumors flying around for a couple of years now, but no confirmation from independent sources. I don't believe LFL either as actions they have taken have countered comments they have made.

Welcome aboard, Zebonka.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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There is original footage in the Empire of Dreams documentary, so it's had to say. The question is, is there a complete version of all the original scenes intact. I'm guessing no.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I'm guessing yes. I belive they have the whole original film intact and preserved somewhere.

I've asked a question some time ago and I didn't see the reply, I'm not sure someone ever did: let's say I own a movie theater and want to book Star Wars on it, so I contact lucasfilm or 20th century fox, whatever, and ask for it. They'll send me the 1997 version or the 2004 version?
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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I would think the 1997 version since the 2004 was never committed to film for presentation in theater. Unless you have a digital projection system which I think can be used with DVDs. I think. Gundark would be the best person to ask about this.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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The original negatives were in really bad shape to begin with in 1997, so I'm not sure if those exist anymore, but as for the originals themselves, there are still VHS and Laserdiscs, which of course have terrible quality compared to DVDs, but I think that's the only way a fan can see the ov without bootleging anymore.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
The original negatives were in really bad shape to begin with in 1997, so I'm not sure if those exist anymore, but as for the originals themselves, there are still VHS and Laserdiscs, which of course have terrible quality compared to DVDs, but I think that's the only way a fan can see the ov without bootleging anymore.
Of course they exist, they were still in really bad shape in 2004, but an Australian company had the task of cleaning them - frame by frame - for restorations. Lucas was surprised they managed to complete the task in time, however those that did it said they would have continued working on it if they were allowed to, because the negatives really are in such bad shape.
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Continue? The picture quality on the DVDs is so excellent I don't see why.

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Because as every year that goes past, the original negatives will continue to deteriorate. They were cleaned for the 1997 release, but not fully digitised for archival purposes. They were fully digitised in 2004, and so it would be in the best interests to provide the negatives in the highest possible quality. Even then they had to be extensively cleaned.

The fact of the matter isn't that the negatives are just a little dirty. They have deteriorated as film does. The point will come when no amount of work can be done to lift usable images off them. It's the same kind of thing with LaserDiscs, rot and warping. Let's say you have a rotted, warped LD. What are you going to do with it? You'll want to lift the images off it into digital preservation as soon as possible, so that it doesn't deteriorate any further. So you get the best player you can, tap the video stream early on, before any comb filters are applied. You then do what you can to de-warp the disc, and make it flat again. And then you clean the disc so that the areas effected by rot will be read as best as possible.

In two months your LD looks exactly like it did before you cleaned it for your archive project.... That's why they wanted to continue to clean the negatives. They may never again have the opportunity to digitise the SW negatives to the same quality that could have been achieved then.
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That's a long way of saying, "it's easy for you to say that, as you didn't see the negatives".
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The print in the worst condition is SW; the conditions under which it was stored were abominable. ESB and ROTJ aren't as bad, because both storage and the film stock were better. If I can I'll link to Robert Harris' comments on SW, or copy them over here.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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I remember seeing in 1997 a comparison between how the original negatives were, and how good they looked after the restoration. It was scary to watch. We are lucky the movie wasn't completly lost or something, studios only began to properly keep their movies in the early 80s.

But DanielB didn't they restore the original negatives? Don't they now have at least a copy of that original film fully restored? I mean, I know GL dosen't want it to be released at all, but he NEEDS to have the film properly preserved! If he decides to change the Jabba scene again, he'll need to work on the original scene, he can't just superimpose a new Jabba there, he'll need visual information of the background. For him, it's like a canvas he can add his CG insanity, he needs it. I say it's restored and fully preserved, locked somewhere.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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As I understand it, the original negatives have been preserved and they were the ones cleaned - the negatives that were actually shot out of the cameras on-set, not copies. While Lucas may no longer have a complete reel of the original editions, he still has all the material required to re-build it.

Some of the film that included effects shots (like the ones with Light Sabres) won't be the film that the live on-set action was actually shot on, I understand that.
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Film Preservation 1993:A Study of the Current State of American Film Preservation

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Lucasfilm, founded by director George Lucas, has gone to great lengths to preserve film, paper records and artifacts related to its productions.57 To use Star Wars (1977) as an example, Lucasfilm's distributor keeps the usual master cut negative and printing materials in a climate-controlled vault but, in addition, Lucasfilm has retained all other production elements. The firm has built its own archives building to house these materials.


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. To return to the Star Wars example, the Library of Congress has copyrighted release prints and reference videodiscs, but the distributor Twentieth Century Fox holds extensive preprint materials and some circulation copies, and Lucasfilm maintains other production elements.


This was 1993 though...
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My understanding is the Library of Congress' print is an original. (No Episode IV.) The American Film Institute is supposed to have a print as well. Whether Empire or Jedi have been archived this way is anyone's guess. It wasn't a case of outright neglect of the film elements (as has happned to other films) it's that the film stock used was pretty lousy and not stable as time passed. It's not just family vacation photos that were screwed over by Kodak getting cheapo back then.
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Where were you in '77?

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Heh, I had a feeling that they might have all the raw film or whatnot tucked away. I mean, Empire of Dreams shows just about anything you can think of - untouched bluescreen shots, clapboards, the 'old' crawl... even the shot with Sebastian Shaw instead of the 'new' Anakin. If they've got all that in their freakin' archive, I think it's reasonable to assume that either the original movies, or at least the old pieces of the originals, should still be stashed away.

I only just realised my icon looks like Freddie Mercury.
VADER: Let me look on you with my own eyes...

LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0
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Originally posted by: DanielB
That's a long way of saying, "it's easy for you to say that, as you didn't see the negatives".


Well obviously.

I don't even know that much about restoration; I was just saying this: I don't see the importance of the original negatives now that there are such high-quality prints on the master DVDs...

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Video formats come and go. Ideally, you want to be able to transfer the film to whatever comes down the pike decades from now. And well preserved film reels will be around a lot longer than the HD tapes Episodes II and III were recorded on.
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Where were you in '77?

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As I have said before, somewhere there exists the entire untouched trilogy on some computer at lucasfilm.
Don't forget: with Lacuna, you can forget.
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Originally posted by: Zebonka
I only just realised my icon looks like Freddie Mercury.


It's more like the Village People...
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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LOL on both counts!

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I would be inclined to believe that somewhere at LFL there is an archived, untouched copy of the Original trilogy. Simply because the restoration work that was done really requires an original copy, as opposed to a special edition copy. In terms of adding new scenes and restoration, it's much easier to do it from an unaltered original than it would be from a copy.

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