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Team Negative1

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 (Edited)

It has come to our attention that some of the recent screen shots posted by Team Negative1 are from a scan of a print that has been obtained by unethical means without the owner’s knowledge or consent. The administration of originaltrilogy.com would like to make it clear that this behavior is totally unacceptable and has no place in our preservation community. We have therefore decided to ban the Team Negative1 account permanently.

Edit for clarification (as much as possible, anyway):

There has been no contact or directive from anyone at Disney or Lucasfilm that has driven this decision.

Our decision also has nothing to do with the “grey areas” in which fan preservations operate or the avoidance of publicity that comes from allowing fan preservation discussion here. Harmy’s Despecialized Edition has already heaped a ton of visibility on ot.com and we’ve seen very positive results for our cause and the community brought about by that visibility; the suggestion that we’d kick a community member to the curb just to spare us some exposure is offensive.

However, I understand the reaction due to the vagueness of the original post. I apologize for not being more specific. There are standards and ethics within the fan preservation community and that’s what this is about. Team Negative1 did something they shouldn’t have. Posting more details could make life harder for other members of the community, so we can’t get into a lot of detail right now, but given Team Negative1’s prominence in the community, we had to say something.

We’ve always been open with the community about every challenge we’ve faced, so we’ll share more details if we are able.

Edit #2 for actual clarification:

mverta, who was one of the parties whose privacy we were trying to protect, posted the following in the Legacy thread:

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/910141

Legacy ultimately features the contributions of 4 (really 4 1/2) Tech prints in addition to various Eastman prints. Early on, I was loaned the “Spanish” print by -1. I didn’t end up using much of it, but I had it scanned at 4K. I was also loaned a “so-so” Tech by Person #2, and a really nice Tech by Person #3. For safety, Person #2 was given digital copies of both his AND Person #3’s scans. Person #2 was, at the time, assumed trustworthy, if for no other reason than self-interest. But then things changed. Person #2 decided to give ALL the scans in his possession to -1. Person #3 rightfully freaked the fuck out - he wanted nothing to do with -1, for all the reasons which should now be clear, but it was too late. Of course, relationships have been severed and damage done. Interestingly, in the middle of this process, a member of team -1 reached out to me because they didn’t have the Greedo scene for shit. To be cool, I actually gave them a nice Tech scan of that scene, not knowing they already had it, or were in the process of getting it. So no good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

So -1 ended up with scans they were not supposed to have, and did precisely with them what people were afraid of them doing. However, that’s spilled milk. -1 is in possession of some decent scans, which, when examining their work, should pretty much put to rest any question about how important ability and experience is in film restoration. Clearly, having decent scans ain’t enough.

The topic is now open for discussion again.

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MTFBWY…A

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O how the mighty fall! Just a couple days ago they were on the top of Google when I typed Star Wars as media sites sung their praises.

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Oh wow. This is sad. Come on guys, we’re better than this.

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I can’t help but wonder if this may have somehow come to light because of the recent media exposure of the project.

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That sucks, on every end pretty much. How did they gain “access” to a print, or scans of it, that was not theirs to disseminate? I don’t really care about the drama or fine details really, it’s just a shame that the Technicolor print project looks (looked?) so astronomically promising. Too good to be true, I guess.

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Wow, this is terrible news. 😦

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The reel is the property of 20th Century Fox. It’s similar to the infamous 16mm print (aka Puggo Grande) of ANH that’s been circulating on e black market for going on 40 years. It was meant for schools, prisons, military bases, etc. However, people saw the dollar signs and starting selling them. Also, when he first copies of ANH hit the shelves in 1982, they were rental copies. The tapes, which were VHS and ßetamax, are the property of 20th Century Fox Video. They were supposed to be either kept by he rental store, thrown out, or returned to Fox. Instead, they were sold at a high price to consumers in what was called a “lifetime rental.” They could pay a few hundred dollars and keep the movie for life. Because it wasn’t legally sold, no contracts were broken. The Video Rental Library copies are rare today. Technically, you aren’t buy in the tape, you are buying the contract. All of these mentioned releases, reels and tapes, are still studio property to this day. If they have explicit, written permission from Fox and/or Lucasfilm, then it is okay. However, the admins did their research, and Team Negative One is unfortunately in the wrong on this one.

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Wait, what? If “the owner” of all prints of the film is just 20th Century Fox (which I don’t think would still be the case since ownership of all Star Wars assets was transferred to Disney), then it wouldn’t just be a few recent screenshots. Everything they have ever done is “unethical” according to that standard. We’ve known for a long time that technically you aren’t supposed to own 35mm prints. You aren’t supposed to upload “despecialized” versions of the movies either. None of this stuff is strictly legal. So there’s got to be more to it than that, UNLESS I was right and this is a consequence of the media exposure, causing Lucasfilm/Fox/Disney/whoever to “contact” the site admins. But I don’t think that’s the case based on the OP.

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My understanding has been that people are not allowed to own 35mm prints. That it is the companies that own them… so yes, any of the efforts done with them would be problematic once they become excessively public.

Sad to see that such an outstanding project would have to be dismissed 😕


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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 (Edited)

Yeah, I’m starting to put the pieces together. Originally I read “from a scan of a print that has been obtained by unethical means without the owner’s knowledge or consent” as meaning that Team Negative1 unethically scanned/obtained the print themselves, but now I’m thinking that they got it from someone who “unethically” obtained it from the studio (as would be the case for all 35mm film prints), and they’ve probably sent out cease and desists following the recent publicity, i.e. they brought it to the team and admins’ “attention.” This caused both the ban and the disbandment.

The only thing that doesn’t fit is that they specifically mentioned just certain recent screen shots of a particular scan/print. But this would apply to everything they have done so far, and even Harmy for using it and his own ROTJ Grindhouse, etc. Which makes me wonder if they only received a complaint about one specific thing and so are only targeting that and banning the Team to save and keep the heat off the rest of the site/community.

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Harmy did something of a mash-up of releases. It’s kind of like taking five albums from the same artist and taking your favorite songs and putting them on one CD. Harmy used digital releases, Blu-Ray discs, DVDs, Laserdiscs, and other releases to make the Despecialized versions. Also, he clearly stated that you can’t buy or sell the despecialized versions. He also said that he doesn’t want people downloading them without compensating Lucasfilm. He has stated that he wants youo buy the corresponding Blu-Ray disc of the movie before you download it. If you have a trilogy or saga set, you’re in the clear to download the despecialized versions. If you don’t, then you’re in the wrong. And you can buy a 35mm or 70mm prin directly from the company. You probably have to sign a ton of contracts that say that you won’t do anything illegal with it (you all know the song and dance by now). Then, you can buy it. No secondhand vendor is legal, because they are in direct violation of the contract.

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Um, not for the ROTJ Grindhouse release he just did he didn’t. That was pure 35mm scan exactly like TN1. So your logic doesn’t hold up. The Team also have made it clear that they don’t want people buying and selling their versions and they want them to own the originals. So again, your logic doesn’t hold up. Also, TN1 has been here for a while and everyone knew what they were doing and exactly how illegal it is. So again, your logic doesn’t hold up.

Also, it seems like if you’re basically pirating parts of even more releases that you aren’t legally supposed to, that would be even “worse.” You’re deluding yourself if you think you’re legally “in the clear” to download the despecialized versions. You definitely aren’t. Ethically, however, is another story. I don’t think either is unethical at all, certainly not one yet not the other, but then I pirate stuff without any remorse whatsoever.

So again, the only conclusion I can reach is that either the admins/Team were specifically contacted about this release due to excess publicity, or there’s something more going on.

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Despecialized counts as a fan edit, Team Negative One found as piracy. You need written permission from the company to copy an item directly. Harmy had these permissions, and he didn’t even run the risk of piracy. If the reel was legally obtained, and the team was given permission to do this, it would have all been legal. What Team Negative One did is literally the same as copying a movie on a computer and putting it on line. Sad but true.

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Wat. Harmy had no such permissions, and Harmy’s Grindhouse is not in any sense a “fan edit,” it is literally exactly the same as TN1’s releases. No offense (or take offense, I don’t care), but you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. No one here believes any of this stuff is legal because it isn’t. We just don’t care or consider it unethical.

And again:

TN1 has been here for a while and everyone knew what they were doing and exactly how illegal it is.

So something has changed.

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Harmy has had permission from the studios to do this since day one. He doesn’t want people just going freelance all over his movies. The ROTJ scan might have been obtained through legal means. However, Harmy is a citizen of e Czech Republic, and I’m not familiar with their laws when it comes to copyrights and piracy. He has said that he has had permission, but that could be a crock for all I know. When it comes to the scan, he might have purchased it directly from Fox or Lucasfilm (or whoever owns the copyright over there.) Or it could’ve been obtained in ways that aren’t legal here (I’m in America) but are there (Czech Republic.)

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Technically, even Despecialized is not a fan edit - that would be reserved for something like Adywan’s versions that actually alter things, rather than simply rolling them back. (And it’s well known that one of his footage sources is the same source underlying the TN1 releases.)

And I don’t think it matters what the law is in the Czech Republic when it comes to OT - the site is hosted and maintained in the United States, and any theoretical Czech license holder can’t approve the use of material outside of the Czech Republic (unless they also hold the license for wherever else it is released).

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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If you’re right (I’m not here to start an argument) then Harmy has lied not only to me but to tens of thousands of OT fans, if not more. I have no clue why he couldn’t just do it legally, but if what you’re saying is true, then he’s just as wrong as them. I’m not as concerned for the fate of his movies, as much as I am for the fact that thousands of people have unknowingly broke the law because of this. I was planning something similar to this. I was going to try to preserve the home video releases of the OT. The first thing I was planning to do was contact Lucasfilm for permission. They would not be up for public viewing or downloading, by they could be used in some way for educational purposes.

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All this speculation is not helping.

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Where were you in '77?

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Quick question about the Team Negative One version. Is it based off of the mono or stereo reel?

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Shane Rollins said:

Harmy has had permission from the studios to do this since day one.

Why sure! I verified this before downloading and Harmy told me that he met George Lucas and some Fox executives in a desert (and Jim Morrison was there too) and they told him to make the Despecialized Editions. Especially George was very happy since he wanted to release the originals himself but had unfortunately lost the negatives!

Such a shame indeed about the TN1 disbanding. I’ve watched that Tech sample 20 times and it still amazes me!

“Stargazing wizards, stare into the night,
Hurricanes and blizzards, here comes the final fight”

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Density said:

TN1 has been here for a while and everyone knew what they were doing and exactly how illegal it is.

So something has changed.

I agree. People use the phrase “grey area”, but all of our fan edits and preservations are illegal, regardless of whether or not you’re taking money out of George’s pockets.

But, you know, if the movie companies had their way, it would be illegal to sell used DVDs.

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Well, some of us have codes of morality that don’t exactly jive with the law. But I’m not gonna kid myself and try to justify what I do as legitimate - I don’t think anyone here does, though.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Molly said:

Well, some of us have codes of morality that don’t exactly jive with the law.

Exactly. And it’s not like we wouldn’t pay $100 immediately if they would just release the damn films like they were. Guys here have invested thousands of dollars to give the fandom what they want, I’m sure they would be happy too to have saved all that money if you could buy Technicolor BDs from the shelf.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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Sure. I’d buy 'em if I could - even though I have no way to play them because to date I have refused to spend a penny on BluRay anything.

There is no “I can” with these three movies, because everyone involved has spent the last 20 years trying to bury them. That’s why piracy happens. But let’s not kid ourselves - “ethical” piracy, so much as one can define such a thing, is piracy. (I’m preaching to the choir, I know.)

I can only hope that what we (I’ve been involved in this kind of matter for over a decade now myself) have been doing will result in the RIGHT thing happening, which is something similar to what we’re aiming for being released, not by fans, but by Fox and/or the Rat.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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I feel as though Despecialized over the years has gotten far more publicity than Team Negative 1’s release as of late. Despecialized has had these spurts of time where the media is all over it too, yet nothing like this has ever happened to him. I believe the op about it being specific to the recent screenshots they’ve been posting, although I really have no idea what that exactly means, and I’m not sure it’s really important for us to know the details, unless of course it’s something that could affect those of us working on our own projects in the future.