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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 66

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SilverWook said:

And Luke came perilously close to killing his own father. Not everybody sees the wrong they are doing, and makes the right choice.

Luke’s father was swinging a lightsaber at him and taunting him with turning his sister to the Dark Side, all while his friends were fighting and dying right out the window.

Ren’s father was touching his son’s face and offering whatever he could to bring him back. He got a lightsaber in the torso for his trouble.

Not really the same thing 😃

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MTFBWY…A

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Jay said:

Yoda Is Your Father said:

How about if there was an in-story explanation that stopped it being a parallel for the sake of it and made it into a plot point? For example, what if Ren himself believed that this was something he had to do, specifically because it was something that had gone before (presumably he’s aware that Luke is Vader’s son). Would the characters in the movie acknowledging the mirrors of history make you ok with it? (just asking - personally I would like to see the characters acknowledge the similarities).

I’d still probably see it as lazy writing, but making it part of the plot would at least add some weight behind it. That would only explain a specific instance such as this one, though. It doesn’t fix Death Star III.

I wanted a new story with the old characters handing the baton to the new characters. I got new characters doing what the old characters did, with the old characters as window dressing. Ultimately, it’s my own expectations that are to blame here.

It’s not a bad Star Wars movie. I just don’t think it’s a particularly good one either.

I think all of this is perfectly fair. Expectations are a huge part of anything Star Wars, positive or negative.

I saw a review if TFA that I liked, which was simply “worse than I hoped and better than I feared.”

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I just remembered about something I wanted to ask.
Do you remember when Ren felt Han on the Starkiller Base? I was wondering if, when his father later approaches him, he’s still aware of his presence but keeps walking away because he can’t face him, or he really couldn’t feel him from that close? He gasps when Han calls him, like if he were [or was?] actually surprised to see him.

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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He probably wasn’t expecting Han to try and confront him? Someone you haven’t spoken to in years might provoke that reaction.

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Where were you in '77?

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Lord Haseo said:

Regardless of what you feel about TFA you should try to make time to watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaliPyihCY

Saw that in my subscription box and definitely watched it!

It’s mind boggling to me though as a late generation SW fan, that ESB was viewed as unoriginal. I could understand the audience feeling let down by the ending though. Back when fans weren’t sure if Lucas could pull through and release a third installment. In their minds basically, they probably thought, “Shit, this movie isn’t as good as STAR WARS, and this latest film brings up too many questions than answers that NEED answers, and now… now we might be stuck with only two films if this one doesn’t sell well!”
Long winded I know, but I’m just trying to imagine myself in their shoes if Star Wars was this new thing. For me growing up, I never had this fear since Star Wars was already so massive in culture. After Attack of the Clones, I thought, “Of course Episode III will happen! It’s a nobrainer!”

The Rise of Failures

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SilverWook said:

He probably wasn’t expecting Han to try and confront him? Someone you haven’t spoken to in years might provoke that reaction.

I got the impression that the moment Han stepped onto the bridge he knew what was going to happen.
Ben/Ren is so conflicted that Han is willing to be killed just to take the pain away from his son.
He doesn’t take the weapon away or point it away from himself he lets it sit there. Han the cynic has made his peace with the universe and is doing whatever he can no matter how weird and twisted to make his son feel better. Which for me, reading it that way was a very sophisticated character interaction. Even if plot wise it’s Kenobi letting Vader kill him all over again.

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I watched it.
But as I hate franchises his argument didn’t wash with me.
As I mention in the comments I only like Raiders and the first 20mins of Indiana Jones and Incredibly Racist Movie of Doom as films because it’s the only time there seems to be something new going on. The Last Crusade is as not for me as Jedi and Crystal Skull is another PT movie.
Similarly I don’t enjoy the Terminator sequels or Aliens as much as I’m culturally obliged to because they are too parasitic on the first superior film.
Writing stories isn’t as difficult as people seem to make out and TFA has the advantage of having interesting well acted characters and a director that moves around a bit.
I’m fed up with references, it was bad when Chewie did the Tarzan thing in Jedi but it’s almost as bad when you get it happening in the same series.
Maybe I’m just getting too old for contemporary culture.
Television does this sort of thing so much better too.
I had moderate expectations of the film when I went in (after 3 PT films and Prometheus) but I came out feeling nothing much. I think I’ve been more energised about the film talking about it here than actually watching the thing.

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TV’s Frink said:

Delicieuxz said:
I expect that TFA is quite palatable to millennials, who it seems that the movie was made for.

There are many examples in this thread showing this was not the case.

😄 I may be an exception, though: my friends absolutely loved TFA, just like they loved the OT and the PT.

Lord Haseo said:

Regardless of what you feel about TFA you should try to make time to watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaliPyihCY

I’ll watch it as soon as possible, thanks!

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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Bingowings said:

I watched it.
But as I hate franchises his argument didn’t wash with me.
As I mention in the comments I only like Raiders and the first 20mins of Indiana Jones and Incredibly Racist Movie of Doom as films because it’s the only time there seems to be something new going on. The Last Crusade is as not for me as Jedi and Crystal Skull is another PT movie.
Similarly I don’t enjoy the Terminator sequels or Aliens as much as I’m culturally obliged to because they are too parasitic on the first superior film.
Writing stories isn’t as difficult as people seem to make out and TFA has the advantage of having interesting well acted characters and a director that moves around a bit.
I’m fed up with references, it was bad when Chewie did the Tarzan thing in Jedi but it’s almost as bad when you get it happening in the same series.
Maybe I’m just getting too old for contemporary culture.
Television does this sort of thing so much better too.
I had moderate expectations of the film when I went in (after 3 PT films and Prometheus) but I came out feeling nothing much. I think I’ve been more energised about the film talking about it here than actually watching the thing.

It is nice of you to put down these thoughts for the both of us…saves me a good deal of trouble…

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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Lord Haseo said:

Regardless of what you feel about TFA you should try to make time to watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaliPyihCY

A formula was used, sure, but there’s still a whole movie script of difference between just using a scene-progression formula and Abrams’ approach of making TFA a total micro and macro element amalgamation of previous SW notes.

ESB’s concept is not a wannabe ANH, nor RotJ’s a wannabe ESB or ANH. TFA is halfway to being just an alternative presentation for the synopsis of SW OT, and is largely a wannabe of the moments from the OT.

But that’s not what I take issue with most, regarding TFA, which how doing this micro and macro OT element amalgamation in TFA formed irreconcilable story elements which don’t add up in meaning looking back to the OT, and which the OT doesn’t seem to lend support towards in TFA.

A person who watches the films casually, or for just a general vibe is more prone to accepting the OT and TFA as being equal, because they’re only looking at the surface appearance. Someone who senses and considers the greater meaning of what’s presented in OT will probably find TFA to be incongruous in ways.

I think that the deeper meaning which a person senses as they consider anything is what is value. So when TFA contradicts what OT added up to, I don’t think citing that represents a sentimental inability by OT diehards to accept TFA. I think that’s rather having the sensibility to remember the authentic pinnacle of SW and not letting that goodness go for the sake of riding the surface of a newer flash. TFA bought a map guide to visit as a tourist the landmarks which were earlier marked during an adventurous trailblazing that was for the sake of delivering a powerful message.

Also, these are separate trilogies, created by different minds and at different periods of time. That’s not a criticism, but it comes through in the presented stories, and they just don’t work as one constant body of SW: If the OT is fully accepted as presented, then, within the brain of the person who accepts them, some things about TFA have to be False. And if TFA is accepted as presented, then some things about the OT have to be False. So if the OT is, in full, canon, then TFA is non-canon, but it works as fanfic, or an alternative take, or however someone wants to phrase it. To me, the GOUT is SW, its first and strongest statement, and everything else has been trying to work to be a part of that, though missing its standard by various measurements.

That applies even to the SE OT, which is essentially Lucas second-guessing the original statement of SW. Second-guesses are weakness, different than what is re-considering, and the edits in the SEs present as second-guessing.

I think it’s entirely possible to make something that does fully work, even though such an accomplishment is rare to find in film-making (or other artistic endeavor), and that Abrams nailed some of the things that would be required for this feat - but that TFA is incongruous with the considerations that the OT amounts to.

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Delicieuxz said:
I think it’s described very well as being a fanfic.

TFA is a $350 million fan-film. I like your quote about it paying homage to the original Star Wars films, but coming up short and failing to become a part of them.

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When I hear anyone describe TFA as a fan film, I immediately think that’s someone who has never actually seen a fan film.

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TV’s Frink said:

When I hear anyone describe TFA as a fan film, I immediately think that’s someone who has never actually seen a fan film.

That’s why I called it a $350 million fan-film.

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JJ is a professional director. If someone gave either of us that much money, we’d make a shit film.

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Yeah, I’d make an awesome film. SW OT 2, for suresies.

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Films are not all either shit or awesome. It’s not always a 0 or 1 situation.

Disliking TFA is fine, thinking it’s shit is hyperbole.

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TV’s Frink said:
Disliking TFA is fine, thinking it’s shit is hyperbole.

I think you are misinterpreting my post. The film looks fine, for the most part. It has a high production budget and was made by professional people. I never said it was ****, rather I’ve consistently said it is mediocre because of the (lack of) story.

It was a cash grab. TFA is the new Godfather 3.

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https://m.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-idiot-/10153163095086277/

From the article
As some of you may be able to see, the ‘plot holes’ outlined in the Huffington Post‘s article are not plot holes at all. They’re simply things to which the reviewer willingly turned a blind eye due to the fact that he went in with a prepossessed notion of what he was going to write. His notion was so strong in fact, that he was able to completely overlook clear and obvious parts of the movie in order to back up the ‘facts’ of his dumb-shit, preconceived article.

I largely agree with this guy (not the ring theory part). I find there to be a great deal of pre-hate out there and intentional ignorance to support it. There was a fair amount of it a year before the film was released. ? Plenty of it around here since the release.

Having real issues with the film and disliking it are great. Have them, explain them, and join in the discussion. It’s why we’re here. As someone who has spent 35 years disliking all but one of the films (until now), I get it. Really, I do. I also fully support those criticisms being posted and discussed.

The walls of text that are nothing more than an attempt to yell down an opposing view - you can do better than that.

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TV’s Frink said:

Films are not all either shit or awesome. It’s not always a 0 or 1 situation.

Saying that when watching TFA the word fan film comes to mind is fine, describing it as a fan film is hyperbole.

That’s better.

Infact it’s not the cinematography of the movie what makes me think of fanfilms when watching it.

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TV’s Frink said:

JJ is a professional director. If someone gave either of us that much money, we’d make a shit film.

I would likely have some explaining to do, it is certain…such as why the opening scrawl endeavored to exceed 3/4 of the length of the film… 😉

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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TV’s Frink said:

JJ is a professional director. If someone gave either of us that much money, we’d make a shit film.

Unless you happen to like Dadaist films; then my film will be nothing short of brillance itself.