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ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 33

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generalfrevious said:

imperialscum said:

generalfrevious said:
I want to actually know what distinguishes ROTJ from the later prequel films in comprehensive detail and not be casually dismissed every time I post something here.

To begin with, the title is different. To conclude, everything else is different.

That’s too vague. I need a lot more detail

This is a film. You have to realise that everything is completely up to one’s opinion. I can only give you my opinion as to why ROTJ is great: Luke’s character development is great, Vader’s character development is the best in the trilogy, Emperor is as perfect as he could be, space battle of Endor is one of the best miniature-model based SFX in film history, Jabba’s palace is very interesting, and so on…

now that we have known for years that the Kurtz version would have been the greatest thing ever.

Could you please stop with this Kurtz already. He was a producer who had very little to do with creative aspects. He was fired in the middle of ESB because he let the film go twice over-budget and over-schedule. In the recent years, he basically just tried to ride on the fans’ distaste towards Lucas to try to make himself look good.

And if you refer to this: “The discussed ending of the film that Kurtz favored presented the rebel forces in tatters, Leia grappling with her new duties as queen and Luke walking off alone “like Clint Eastwood in the spaghetti westerns,” as Kurtz put it.”… this is the stupidest version possible, which could have even been Lucas’ idea in the first place.

真実

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I think I’m okay with Jedi now. But still, it won’t be critically rehabilitated in the near future, and we still won’t have a SW film like Empire.

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Re-watched the Trilogy ahead of TFA. Jedi is still the best IMO. Plus I gave the final act a watch with the isolated score. The visuals and music alone tell the story. A masterpiece of design, editing and direction combined with William’s best score.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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F**k it.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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generalfrevious said:

I think I’m okay with Jedi now.

I hope you finally got the point here. If you like something, why the hell would you care about anything else.

But still, it won’t be critically rehabilitated in the near future

What does this suppose to mean? If you refer to a “score” from a few so-called “film critics”, or in other words incompetent idiots who try to present their opinion of an art as something objective, I don’t think there is any reason to care about that. ROTJ is already very well regarded by the general audience. For example… IMDb is, due to a huge number of votes, a very good estimation of general opinion and ROTJ is ranked among top 100 films of all time.

and we still won’t have a SW film like Empire.

Of course we won’t have another SW film like Empire… unless they make a re-make. But the same applies for any other SW film because each is unique.

真実

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generalfrevious said:

I think I’m okay with Jedi now. But still, it won’t be critically rehabilitated in the near future, and we still won’t have a SW film like Empire.

Here’s how I contrast the similar aspects between ROTJ and The Prequels:

  • ROTJ is shot on film; The Prequels are digital
  • Ewoks are costumes with actors; Gungans et al are CGI with voices
  • Han and Leia have pre-existing characters, well defined and developed prior to ROTJ; Qui Gon, Maul and Padme are bland and never explored
  • Jabba the Hutt (great character design); The Prequels are never more than derivative of this
  • ROTJ space battle is brilliant, with intricate models and a supporting cast we care about; TPM space battle is tensionless, the others in The Prequels are tensionless and weightless CGI
  • Some of the acting in ROTJ is truly great, Mark Hamill, Ian McDiarmid and the collcetive Darth Vader shine; in The Prequels… need I say more?
  • Camera angles and blocking is far more interesting in ROTJ, the cinematography is actually engaging; in The Prequels anything without total CGI is static and flat angled
  • ROTJ only 3 scenes of 2 people sitting or standing and talking and NO COUNCIL MEETINGS; Too many too count in the Prequels
  • Score in ROTJ is incredible and brings a lot of emotional heft, even where it is otherwise lacking; despite being the best part of the prequels, nothing other than Duel of the Fates stands out, and it can’t elevate the script’s inability to relate to the audience

Thinking the unthinkable indeed.

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The Phantom Menace was shot on film.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

The Phantom Menace was shot on film.

True, and I should have mentioned that as an exception, but laziness. 😉
The majority of the Prequels were digital though, so by law of averages… 😛

Thinking the unthinkable indeed.

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Council meetings or discussions in the prequels don’t bother me in principle but the dialogue is just so badly written and acted and the unbelievable CGI surroundings don’t make them engaging or interesting.

Anyhow ROTJ is the film I like to watch the most, probably just because it’s the last one. In the first half I like the Jabba’s palace stuff it’s fun and exciting. In the second half it’s all about the Luke Vader Emperor triangle which is just brilliant, the rest of it is a little bit of a sideshow.

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RotJ has always been my favourite film of the SW series. It has the most fluid space ship battle, and the best light saber battle. It also has some of the scenes that I like most, like Jaba’s sail barge, and the speeder bike chase. And it also has some of the best Darth Vader moments. Jedi also has many of the series’ deepest and strongest emotional points, with Luke helplessly watching the Rebel fleet from the Death Star while the emperor taunts him, and while he tries to redeem his father, but his father resists, and tries to break Luke, and use Lea against him, and then Luke breaks… and when Vader dies, saved… the funeral pyre for Vader, the ghosts of Obi, Yoda, and Anakin…

I also love Jedi’s ending (though I prefer the non SE version), and I’m very glad that Harrison Ford didn’t get his way by having Han Solo die in the movie, which I think would have been a cheap emotional cash-in that SW didn’t need, and that its story accomplished a perfect resolution.

So much criticism towards Jedi seems to be about the Ewoks, but people taking issue with Ewoks should think about this: Full body armour that does nothing to protect the wearer, and only makes it difficult for the wearer to see, and walk. If Storm Troopers aren’t a weak point of Star Wars, then Ewoks are completely in the clear.

I think that the people who critique RotJ for Ewoks just have latent teddy-bear issues or something, and that their gripes say something about only them, and not the movie.

I’ve grown to appreciate Empire Strikes Back more over time, but at best I say it’s equal to Return of the Jedi - which is a pretty darn good compliment. I think the series goes RotJ (best), ESB (2nd best, up to parity with RotJ), IV (decent, even good, but also rough in many ways).

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I’ve come to terms with Ewoks ever since I read these points:

-Endor is the Ewok’s home turf
-They are savages (they will try to burn live bodies and probably consume them)
-They ARE warriors and trappers (all those log contraptions were probably originally made for bigger game that lurk in the forest)
-They are difficult targets to spot (they’re short so they blend better with the ground, and they can attack easily from treetops as well)

With that aside, while I don’t have issue with how ‘teddy bears’ defeat a garrison of Stormtroopers/AT-ST’s, I do take issue to even have them in the first place. Mostly because I found the wookiee army more intriguing of an idea.

The Rise of Failures

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Yes, a Wookiee army (non-digital version) would have been so much better.

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A Wookiee army, though, would make the Star Wars universe seem a bit too condensed. Ewoks made Endor feel like another new discovery, both for the viewer and also the SW characters, themselves. The SW characters didn’t know what they were encountering when they landed there. If it had been a Wookiee planet that the Empire had just decided to use for their base, then it’d be like: OK, so in the SW universe there are primarily humans, droids, and wookiees… and the rest are b-grade props.

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It’s a fair point in some regard. However, you could show that diversity in the universe via the Rebel fleet pilots. That would give more weight to the Rebel Alliance to show how this isn’t just a human fight for freedom, but every alien’s fight too.

Chewie would have something more to do as well in the story. Perhaps it doesn’t have to be a Wookiee planet, but a place where many Wookiee slaves are imprisoned there by the Empire, so with Chewie’s help, frees them and overruns the Imperials there. Introducing Ewoks in one and only movie has that issue of trying to tell their own story, their culture, etc when there’s so much already going on and slows down the movie too.

The Rise of Failures

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The SW universe was already condensed like crazy. No amount of Wookiees would have made that much difference.

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ROTJ continues ESB’s theme of choice, free will, and rejecting a dark destiny. Luke is taunted that it’s his “destiny” to turn dark and replace Vader, he’s told that the Emperor is now his master, but he disproves all that and stays true to who he is. Yoda and the Emperor both tell Luke that turning back from the dark side is impossible, Vader says “it’s too late for me,” but at the end Vader overcomes the dark side and sacrifices himself to save Luke.

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I love me some ROTJ, but I can’t get down with the idea that the lightsaber duel is better than the one in ESB. That’s the finest fight choreography in the entire saga, particularly the lead up to the “I am your father” bombshell right after the Falcon escapes.

I also find that the Ewoks bother me a lot less now at age 26 than they did ten years or so ago. I think the big turning point was realizing that they totally eat people.

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So does flesh eating bacteria, but I can’t be afraid of it. It’s too cuddly!

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TavorX said:

I’ve come to terms with Ewoks ever since I read these points:

-They ARE warriors and trappers (all those log contraptions were probably originally made for bigger game that lurk in the forest)

I think that the Ewoks could have easily set log traps up specifically for battle preparation against the imperials (just make a log, hoist it up with ropes. They could probably make many such traps in a day), but that they were placed in obvious pathways, and the AT-STs were lured through those pathways.

joefavs said:

I love me some ROTJ, but I can’t get down with the idea that the lightsaber duel is better than the one in ESB. That’s the finest fight choreography in the entire saga, particularly the lead up to the “I am your father” bombshell right after the Falcon escapes.

What I like about the RotJ saber fight is how less stiff and more fluid the movements are, and how it’s less Vader toying with Luke, and more Luke holding his own. I also love the green light saber.

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Delicieuxz said:

RotJ has always been my favourite film of the SW series. It has the most fluid space ship battle, and the best light saber battle. It also has some of the scenes that I like most, like Jaba’s sail barge, and the speeder bike chase. And it also has some of the best Darth Vader moments. Jedi also has many of the series’ deepest and strongest emotional points, with Luke helplessly watching the Rebel fleet from the Death Star while the emperor taunts him, and while he tries to redeem his father, but his father resists, and tries to break Luke, and use Lea against him, and then Luke breaks… and when Vader dies, saved… the funeral pyre for Vader, the ghosts of Obi, Yoda, and Anakin…

I also love Jedi’s ending (though I prefer the non SE version), and I’m very glad that Harrison Ford didn’t get his way by having Han Solo die in the movie, which I think would have been a cheap emotional cash-in that SW didn’t need, and that its story accomplished a perfect resolution.

So much criticism towards Jedi seems to be about the Ewoks, but people taking issue with Ewoks should think about this: Full body armour that does nothing to protect the wearer, and only makes it difficult for the wearer to see, and walk. If Storm Troopers aren’t a weak point of Star Wars, then Ewoks are completely in the clear.

I think that the people who critique RotJ for Ewoks just have latent teddy-bear issues or something, and that their gripes say something about only them, and not the movie.

I’ve grown to appreciate Empire Strikes Back more over time, but at best I say it’s equal to Return of the Jedi - which is a pretty darn good compliment. I think the series goes RotJ (best), ESB (2nd best, up to parity with RotJ), IV (decent, even good, but also rough in many ways).

Yes.

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Delicieuxz said:

I think that the people who critique RotJ for Ewoks just have latent teddy-bear issues or something, and that their gripes say something about only them, and not the movie.

It says that we understand there’s no way a bunch of Ewoks should be able to take down an entire Legion of the Emperor’s best troops.

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TV’s Frink said:

Delicieuxz said:

I think that the people who critique RotJ for Ewoks just have latent teddy-bear issues or something, and that their gripes say something about only them, and not the movie.

It says that we understand there’s no way a bunch of Ewoks should be able to take down an entire Legion of the Emperor’s best troops.

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That’s another problem with the movie, not a defense of the Ewoks.

For the record, the Emperor called them that, not me.

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The Ewoks aren’t the problem. The problem is that this movie is nowhere near as well made and entertaining as the previous two, because while those had pretty good pacing, this one flows all wrong and takes too much strange detours. Ewoks are one of these detours.