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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 65

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Delicieuxz said:
Here’s another point: TFA is openly for the fans.

Thank God. After 33 years of Lucas putting the fans second, or worse (intentionally battling them by doing the very things they were against), this has been a very long time coming.

Delicieuxz said:
I think it’s described very well as being a fanfic.

Again, after 33 years of Lucasfic, a welcome change.

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 (Edited)

Anchorhead said:

Delicieuxz said:
I can’t accept TFA as a real entry in the SW saga because it devalues the events in the original trilogy, and renders all those trials, lessons, and victories as nullified, by the very people who achieved them.

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/

This article is an excellent explanation of why some fans may be struggling with Lucas’ fairy tale ending being erased. Real life doesn’t always end with dancing plush toys.

This is an excellent read and Austin Walker is a treasure. I’m so glad Giant Bomb hired him.

I see so much being made out of the fact that TFA takes so much of its story beats and imagery from the first Star Wars movie, but never really much discussion about the context in which it does so. TFA focuses on protagonists who are living in the shadow of larger than life figures.
Rey has a Rebel Pilot doll. Kylo Ren seeks to follow in Darth Vaders footsteps. All of them have missing parent figures. There’s that wonderful scene where Fin recognizes Han as a war hero, and Rey recognizes him as a smuggler. Heck, at one point in the movie there’s a shot that frames the deactivated R2-D2 as a rather imposing and statuesque figure over the smaller BB-8. All of this colors the new character’s decisions and attitudes in a way that isn’t seen in the original trilogy.

TFA sufficiently retells the Star Wars myth in the way that the original Star Wars retold the old space adventure serials and the classic hero’s journey.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture DE - The Anti-DNR Fanedit
Duel (1971) - The Hybrid Cut
The Phantom of the Opera - 1925 Version Reconstruction - Rare Scores Collection - Roy Budd Score

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Delicieuxz said:
I expect that TFA is quite palatable to millennials, who it seems that the movie was made for.

There are many examples in this thread showing this was not the case.

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Delicieuxz said:

Here’s another point: TFA is openly for the fans. It didn’t come carrying its own voice or knowing part of the saga that needed to be told, it came to celebrate and re-experience what already was.

From the start, it wasn’t designed to be the focused reality of the continuation of SW, but to conjure up images from the part of the SW reality which has already completed, while putting those images within the framework of a continuing story.

There is a difference between what the story that comes from the goals of TFA is, and what a story made to be only its own self, in its own space, would be. TFA takes the slot of this next period of SW, but uses it as a fanciful flashback. It breaks stride with SW OT, and while it presents itself using many of the same tones, and is excellent in doing that, it doesn’t carry what was established in SW forward, and seems to exist out of a distinct frame of mind from the OT, while presenting facsimile images.

I think it’s described very well as being a fanfic.

I agree with your perception of this film as being a millennial fanfiction project…this is likely the chief source of the issue I had with the film…

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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Anchorhead said:

Delicieuxz said:
I can’t accept TFA as a real entry in the SW saga because it devalues the events in the original trilogy, and renders all those trials, lessons, and victories as nullified, by the very people who achieved them.

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/

This article is an excellent explanation of why some fans may be struggling with Lucas’ fairy tale ending being erased. Real life doesn’t always end with dancing plush toys.

This is an interesting rationalization of the characters presented in TFA…it is yet unfortunate they were not equally afforded their own ‘millennial’ plot and character development to properly cinch the deal…unless a millennial plot is essentially the perpetual reconstitution of ideas from the BB generation…?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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Ben-Solo said:

One thing I like about this movie is at least Han shot first like he always did 😉

Agreed, this is certainly one redeeming feature…

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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Bingowings said:

Delicieuxz said:

Bingowings said:

The Triumph of The Will is a quoted inspiration for that composition. The original source might send shivers up our spines but for patriotic Germans it may have felt good back then. Even the title A New Hope has fascistic undertones. Hitlerism plays with the same heroic language that mythology does. Star Wars is modern mythology.

None of that is Nazi imagery, trying to evoke feelings based on expressed association. The A New Hope shot posted above is not trying to instil audience feeling by conjuring up a known counterpart, particularly a beaten-do-death and low brow cheap fall-back one, such as Nazi imagery in serious fiction.

I’m not sure if English is your first language but that is what I said. The imagery used in the Throne Room scene is meant to evoke the original intent of the Triumph of the Will composition, that of heroism and triumph not the feelings associated with Nazism. The Imperial uniforms and Jack Boots and even to some extent Vader’s helmet is supposed to remind us of Nazis.

I’m all for associating Nazism with evil. I think culture needs a bit of a reminder now and then but bear in mind the Nazis themselves pinched from Ancient Rome and even more Ancient India for some of it’s iconography and so did the first order and movies about both.

And even Disney has pinched such imagery.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-lion-king-be-prepared-nazi-film-2014-6

I know when I first saw TLK, my jaw dropped during the Be Prepared sequence.

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TV’s Frink said:

Yep, you’re definitely a computer.

TV’s Frink said:

Maybe he(?) is a droid.

It’s ever-so-slightly dickish to respond to some of the most lucid and thoughtful posts about TFA we’ve seen here with snide quips. Doesn’t really speak to the strength of your own arguments. How about responding to his points?

TFA is a success not because it met high expectations, but because it had its bar set very low thanks to the prequels, and just because it shares logical inconsistencies with the OT doesn’t mean it fits logically in the Star Wars universe.

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 (Edited)

Read the part I quoted again.

Because TFA negates the value and meaning of the original trilogy’s sacrifices and victories, and because TFA’s value is its replication of those original trilogy experiences, its existence depends on the original trilogy evaluating as True.

TFA is dependent upon the original trilogy in all ways. But because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy, if the original trilogy evaluates as False, then TFA also evaluates as False. If TFA evaluates as True, then the original trilogy evaluates as False, and therefore TFA also evaluates as False. If the original trilogy evaluates evaluates as True, then TFA evaluates as False.

TFA evaluates as False against the original trilogy. So where the original trilogy is True, TFA not a part of its saga.

TRUE FALSE TRUE FALSE 1 01 1 10 0 1 1 0 1

I made a joke about that part. The response I got was more of the same, therefore I made the joke again.

If you want a serious response, it’s a movie, not a logic problem to solve. You can quibble with the inconsistencies you see, but I don’t see how this movie fails to fit in the SW universe.

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because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy

Disagree. If for no other reason that we haven’t seen how everything happened or what will happen going forward.

And Jay, I also provided a serious response to the “Bad Parents” thing, you may have missed that.

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TV’s Frink said:

because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy

Disagree. If for no other reason that we haven’t seen how everything happened or what will happen going forward.

This has become the fallback position for things that aren’t adequately explained in TFA.

Based on what we know now, the Republic has been crippled — if not destroyed — because they failed to maintain vigilance against the same type of enemy they encountered in the past, Leia is running the Rebellion (excuse me, the Resistance) from a basement, and Han is a loser who went back to smuggling because apparently he couldn’t cut it as a hero and father. And Luke is Ben now, except he has a sad, so he went to Ireland on holiday.

I actually like that these heroic characters went on to experience tragedy in their lives after experiencing both crushing defeats and epic highs, but it seems to be in service to the retread rather than genuine storytelling. What I didn’t see, what there wasn’t enough of, was HOW and WHY these characters we love ended up as they did. Punting it to the next installment is lazy, and I bet we don’t get answers to a lot of these questions.

And Jay, I also provided a serious response to the “Bad Parents” thing, you may have missed that.

For what it’s worth, I also assumed failed parenting played a major role in Ren’s situation. You don’t stab your dad through the chest with a lightsaber without holding some serious resentment toward him, and it’s not hard to picture a nomad like Han having difficulty settling down and raising a kid.

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ElectricTriangle said:

I see so much being made out of the fact that TFA takes so much of its story beats and imagery from the first Star Wars movie, but never really much discussion about the context in which it does so. TFA focuses on protagonists who are living in the shadow of larger than life figures.
Rey has a Rebel Pilot doll. Kylo Ren seeks to follow in Darth Vaders footsteps. All of them have missing parent figures. There’s that wonderful scene where Fin recognizes Han as a war hero, and Rey recognizes him as a smuggler. Heck, at one point in the movie there’s a shot that frames the deactivated R2-D2 as a rather imposing and statuesque figure over the smaller BB-8. All of this colors the new character’s decisions and attitudes in a way that isn’t seen in the original trilogy.

This is a lovely way of looking at it.

War does not make one great.

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Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy

Disagree. If for no other reason that we haven’t seen how everything happened or what will happen going forward.

This has become the fallback position for things that aren’t adequately explained in TFA.

Based on what we know now, the Republic has been crippled — if not destroyed — because they failed to maintain vigilance against the same type of enemy they encountered in the past, Leia is running the Rebellion (excuse me, the Resistance) from a basement, and Han is a loser who went back to smuggling because apparently he couldn’t cut it as a hero and father. And Luke is Ben now, except he has a sad, so he went to Ireland on holiday.

I actually like that these heroic characters went on to experience tragedy in their lives after experiencing both crushing defeats and epic highs, but it seems to be in service to the retread rather than genuine storytelling. What I didn’t see, what there wasn’t enough of, was HOW and WHY these characters we love ended up as they did. Punting it to the next installment is lazy, and I bet we don’t get answers to a lot of these questions.

And Jay, I also provided a serious response to the “Bad Parents” thing, you may have missed that.

For what it’s worth, I also assumed failed parenting played a major role in Ren’s situation. You don’t stab your dad through the chest with a lightsaber without holding some serious resentment toward him, and it’s not hard to picture a nomad like Han having difficulty settling down and raising a kid.

When Kylo is reading Rey’s mind, he says “You see Han Solo as the Father you never had… he would have only disappointed you”, so there is definitely an element of bad parenting (or perceived bad parenting). But I’m not sure the blame for the entire state of the galaxy can be put on Han and Leia (as a few people have suggested). That’s like blaming Hitler’s Dad for the holocaust, while ignoring all the political, economical and historical factors that played a role.

To me, the idea that after the joyous victory of ROTJ, events, politics, and plain old human nature have led to a repeat of history is quite an interesting one. Haven’t we all experienced that in our own lives to some degree? Don’t we all ‘become our parents’ in some ways, even when we swear we never will? And on a global scale, it certainly seems to be true that “We learn from history that we learn nothing from history.”

If Star Wars was originally a reaction to the vietnam war (at least in part), doesn’t the idea that history has a habit of repeating itself feel like a fitting theme for a new ‘War on Terror’ era Star Wars movie.

I realise I’ve gone quite deep. I’m just typing stream of conscience. But it’s food for thought.

War does not make one great.

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Jay said:

I actually like that these heroic characters went on to experience tragedy in their lives after experiencing both crushing defeats and epic highs, but it seems to be in service to the retread rather than genuine storytelling. What I didn’t see, what there wasn’t enough of, was HOW and WHY these characters we love ended up as they did. Punting it to the next installment is lazy, and I bet we don’t get answers to a lot of these questions.

If we never get answers, I will agree that it was lazy. But I don’t see anything wrong with leaving some things unexplained at this point in the trilogy.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:

But I’m not sure the blame for the entire state of the galaxy can be put on Han and Leia (as a few people have suggested).

Certainly not. I doubt Han failed in such a total and complete way as a parent that he produced Space Hitler II as a son. It’s easy to see him not being present as a father and not living up to the legend he had become, though. He’s also a smartass who tends to blow his top and then apologize later.

Ren’s current state is probably a combination of Han’s failures as a father, Ren’s expectations of him, and whatever honey Snopes poured into his ear, but how did it get so bad that he was willing to kill him?

Yet another parallel to the OT that just seems lazy to me. In order to continue on his path to the Dark Side, Ren had to confront his father, and instead of saving him, kill him.

Ugh.

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Space Hitler II was my college band’s second album. It sold poorly.

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Even the best parents in the world can lose a kid to a corrupting outside influence. If Palpatine had a silver tongue, Snoke is probably the master of mixing truth and lies.

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Where were you in '77?

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And at this point we have no idea how it actually happened and who is to blame.

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SilverWook said:

Even the best parents in the world can lose a kid to a corrupting outside influence. If Palpatine had a silver tongue, Snoke is probably the master of mixing truth and lies.

Yeah, but…he killed his own father. With a lightsaber. To the chest.

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Jay said:

Yet another parallel to the OT that just seems lazy to me. In order to continue on his path to the Dark Side, Ren had to confront his father, and instead of saving him, kill him.

Ugh.

Yeah, I do see your point (even though i don’t mind it myself).

How about if there was an in-story explanation that stopped it being a parallel for the sake of it and made it into a plot point? For example, what if Ren himself believed that this was something he had to do, specifically because it was something that had gone before (presumably he’s aware that Luke is Vader’s son). Would the characters in the movie acknowledging the mirrors of history make you ok with it? (just asking - personally I would like to see the characters acknowledge the similarities).

War does not make one great.

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Jay said:

SilverWook said:

Even the best parents in the world can lose a kid to a corrupting outside influence. If Palpatine had a silver tongue, Snoke is probably the master of mixing truth and lies.

Yeah, but…he killed his own father. With a lightsaber. To the chest.

And Luke came perilously close to killing his own father. Not everybody sees the wrong they are doing, and makes the right choice.

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Where were you in '77?

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Yoda Is Your Father said:

How about if there was an in-story explanation that stopped it being a parallel for the sake of it and made it into a plot point? For example, what if Ren himself believed that this was something he had to do, specifically because it was something that had gone before (presumably he’s aware that Luke is Vader’s son). Would the characters in the movie acknowledging the mirrors of history make you ok with it? (just asking - personally I would like to see the characters acknowledge the similarities).

I’d still probably see it as lazy writing, but making it part of the plot would at least add some weight behind it. That would only explain a specific instance such as this one, though. It doesn’t fix Death Star III.

I wanted a new story with the old characters handing the baton to the new characters. I got new characters doing what the old characters did, with the old characters as window dressing. Ultimately, it’s my own expectations that are to blame here.

It’s not a bad Star Wars movie. I just don’t think it’s a particularly good one either.

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