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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 64

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Some of the concept art in the Art Of Star Wars book is a little bit creepy. There was definitely a WWII influence of the look and feel of the Empire from the beginning.

I’m always amused when I spot actors who played imperials in the OT playing Germans in WWII movies, or Russians in Cold War movies. Talk about typecasting!

Alec Guinness playing the title role in Hitler : The Last Ten Days is way too creepy though.

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Where were you in '77?

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Back in 1977 most of the middle aged cast and crew would have had a WW2 experience, particularly the British crew. It would have been more obvious to them than us lot. As I say it only makes us feel uneasy because we know what the people who commissioned the original film were up to. The original shot wasn’t designed to provoke disgust but awe and heroism. Lucas reclaimed that for the good guys. In ROTJ and AOTC the same sort of imagery was used to evoke the fascism that used the imagery in our past. It"s a shame Chewie didn’t hold up a giant plasma bomb at the end as a simple of peace though 😄

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TV’s Frink said:

timemeddler said:

hmm not much in the movie to like. one of the dumbest was line “thats the republic”, soo the republic consists of about ten planets?

I don’t remember who said this and what exactly they said, can you elaborate?

It was Finn, he comes rushing to Han Solo shouting “It was the republic! The First Order, they’ve done it! Where’s Rey?”

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Delicieuxz said:
It must be hard for those two to know that they’re responsible for the troubles now facing everyone - though the movie doesn’t acknowledge this. They had a son, and whoops, all the rebels victories are now undone and everything is right back to where they were.

If you have read some of the expanded literature out there, The republic is certainly the major power in this time, the first order is a fringe organisation who have territory. They pretty much have that single star destroyer, which is itself illegal under some embargo. The ‘resistance’ is a Private Military Corps funded by leia outside of the Republic to monitor the First Order becuse the New Republic is apparently ignorant of the First Order, or unwilling to aknowlege their rising power

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Delicieuxz said:

I think Abrahms got the tone mostly right, the dialog and acting is good, but it’s like an amalgamation of situation reprisals from the original trilogy. So I think it’s an OK fan homage, but not an authentic part of the Star Wars story.

I don’t take TFA to be an canon part of the SW saga, because its construction and meaning is, frankly, derivative and absurd.

The film is wilfully uncaring of its constant recasting of setups, imagery, scenarios, banters from the original SW trilogy. And as the film doesn’t take itself to be an equal part of the SW saga, but rather a homage to it, neither do I take it as being a believable entry.

A lot of The tone of TFA is well done, and very much Star Wars, unlike the films of the prequel trilogy. A lot of the dialog makes sense, and the acting is pretty good. But it’s all used to recreate facsimile experiences and imagery from the original trilogy. It’s playing pretend.

The Nazi imagery scenes in TFA were beneath anything Star Wars, and the film jumped the shark at that point. Also, Hans supposed death was silly in so many ways: On a bridge over a chasm, mimicking the Luke and Vader scene at Cloud City in ESB… father facing his son, who is literally a Vader wannabe… the beam of light on them, which fades as the son makes his attack…

Also, TFA is flagrantly nerdy (the light saber hilt, the Vader wannabe, the contrived Han death - which Harrison always wanted, the mega weapon plot device, and more), while the original SW saga is not.

Overall, I found TFA to be a decent watch, but it also hurt me a bit to watch, because it used the classic characters, their actors, and did so much right - but in the end it doesn’t have the sincerity or integrity of the original trilogy, and is clearly a homage to the original Star Wars saga, and not a part of it.

Have you seen the early TFA storyboards in the ‘art of’ book which show an intro shot that was going to mimic the famous star destroyer shot from ANH?

Right or wrong, I think that a sequel made 30 years later by a director (ad team) who were a teenagers or younger when the OT came out, was inevitably going to be an homage to some degree.

Despite that, I found your post very interesting, because you’ve given a valid reason for why the retreading of old ground didn’t work you. Even though it didn’t bother me, I absolutely can see your point and understand why as a result you might not choose to consider it canon. Something about the points you’ve raised (or the way you’ve raised them) rings truer to me than ‘it’s a rip off, waaaaaahhhh’.

Delicieuxz said:

The basis for all the trouble of TFA is that Han and Leia were bad parents… and somehow that one thing resulted in a reset of everything to Episode IV’s state, so that all the same motions could be gone through again - yet the main characters in TFA don’t notice that they’re just doing all the same things all over again.

I didn’t take ‘bad parenting’ from the film, but the fact that history is repeating itself… surely that’s an intentional message. History repeats itself in reality too. I think “those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” is a pretty cool theme for a sequel trilogy.

Delicieuxz said:

Also. before watching TFA, I started to watch Episode 2 of the prequel trilogy, thinking I would enjoy it while passing some time. I ended up shutting it off because it was just crap. I hadn’t seen any of it in years, and before putting it on, I thought it couldn’t be as bad as my memory was suggesting to me. Man, my memory knew what it was talking about. For the short time I watched it, Episode 2 was abysmal, like a half-assed clumsy children’s cartoon, made by people who didn’t know that making something nonsensical and flamboyant doesn’t amount to quality children’s programming.

I’ve only seen AOTC once, in the cinema when it first came out, but I’m glad to learn that my memory also knows what it’s talking about 😃

War does not make one great.

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Jay said:

Framing a shot because it looked good in another movie is not the same as trying to evoke the same feelings as the shot’s inspiration.

The parallels to Nazism in TFA are pretty clear, however.

A little too clear I would say. I have no issue with the first Order (or the Empire) being portrayed as nazi-like, but the whole red banners thing was a little to obvious, IMO. It took me out of the movie momentarily.

War does not make one great.

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bishabosha said:

Delicieuxz said:
It must be hard for those two to know that they’re responsible for the troubles now facing everyone - though the movie doesn’t acknowledge this. They had a son, and whoops, all the rebels victories are now undone and everything is right back to where they were.

If you have read some of the expanded literature out there, The republic is certainly the major power in this time, the first order is a fringe organisation who have territory. They pretty much have that single star destroyer, which is itself illegal under some embargo. The ‘resistance’ is a Private Military Corps funded by leia outside of the Republic to monitor the First Order becuse the New Republic is apparently ignorant of the First Order, or unwilling to aknowlege their rising power

This is the first time I’ve actually seen the set-up explained clearly. I get it now. Thanks.

But I have to say, that did not come across clearly in the film.

War does not make one great.

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SilverWook said:

Some of the concept art in the Art Of Star Wars book is a little bit creepy. There was definitely a WWII influence of the look and feel of the Empire from the beginning.

I’m always amused when I spot actors who played imperials in the OT playing Germans in WWII movies, or Russians in Cold War movies. Talk about typecasting!

Alec Guinness playing the title role in Hitler : The Last Ten Days is way too creepy though.

Here’s another one I noticed recently when ‘escape to victory’ was on TV over christmas…

https://mikestakeonthemovies.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/max-von-sydow-in-victory.jpg"

(By the way, pardon my ignorance but is there a guide thread on how to do simple things like embed an image?)

War does not make one great.

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Bingowings said:

The Triumph of The Will is a quoted inspiration for that composition. The original source might send shivers up our spines but for patriotic Germans it may have felt good back then. Even the title A New Hope has fascistic undertones. Hitlerism plays with the same heroic language that mythology does. Star Wars is modern mythology.

None of that is Nazi imagery, trying to evoke feelings based on expressed association. The A New Hope shot posted above is not trying to instil audience feeling by conjuring up a known counterpart, particularly a beaten-do-death and low brow cheap fall-back one, such as Nazi imagery in serious fiction.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:
Have you seen the early TFA storyboards in the ‘art of’ book which show an intro shot that was going to mimic the famous star destroyer shot from ANH?

I haven’t see that. But there are a lot of scenes like that, such as when Finn removes his storm trooper mask to deliver an ‘I’m here to save you’ line to Po.

Another case is the supreme leader figure, who appears via projection, being a ghoulish looking character, pale and wrinkled skin, talking cryptically, being master over millennial Vader and the other officer… is all an attempted remanifestation of the original trilogy’s emperor.

In other cases, TFA recycles the same collection of scene ingredients from the past: a desert planet, scavenger child, collector foremen who ruthlessly take advantage of scavengers (who get comeuppance, of a kind), all in the same pot, comprising the sensory elements for that part of the story, and basis for that scavenger character.

All these things meant to evoke the senses from the original trilogy. But the thing is, those experiences already have their true forms in the original trilogy, and when they’re replicated, their greatest value is that they trigger the senses of the originals, but are a bit less authentic, for it.

TFA, to be equal to the original trilogy, would be as good in quality, matching the design tones, while being novel with the details and ideas. Abrahms noticed a lot of the things that make Star Wars great, but he clearly didn’t have the understanding within himself to develop truly new and universe-progressive content using all those same qualities. So he did the same things with them that the original movies did, copying them.

But Abrahms is clearly close to understanding how these things all work, but I wonder if he even notices himself that what he’s doing, copying these setups, is a different behaviour than actively considering creations, having these qualities existing within himself.

Yoda Is Your Father said:

Delicieuxz said:

The basis for all the trouble of TFA is that Han and Leia were bad parents… and somehow that one thing resulted in a reset of everything to Episode IV’s state, so that all the same motions could be gone through again - yet the main characters in TFA don’t notice that they’re just doing all the same things all over again.

I didn’t take ‘bad parenting’ from the film, but the fact that history is repeating itself… surely that’s an intentional message. History repeats itself in reality too. I think “those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” is a pretty cool theme for a sequel trilogy.

Whether the film mentions it or not, Han and Leia having a kid is what is behind TFA’s tragedies and greatest challenges and threat towards the galaxy.

The presented outcome of that child in TFA is the mechanism for all the resets within the movie: Han and Chewie being daring rogue smugglers (because that’s what people like to think of them as), Leia as princess general (again, because that’s what people like to think of her as… but doesn’t she ever experience job fatigue, and a sense of futility at her lot?), Luke in hiding while the Jedi are back in the role of being hunted to exterminate (because ANH and the original Star Wars is cool, obviously…), Light vs Dark force-weilders, and there’s more.

It all hinges on Han and Leia having that child, and that child going astray, which implies that Han and Leia didn’t foster the understanding and loving relationship that would keep a kid from going full villain for the sake of being full villain.

And I can’t accept TFA as a real entry in the SW saga because it devalues the events in the original trilogy, and renders all those trials, lessons, and victories as nullified, by the very people who achieved them.

Han’s semen and Leia’s ovaries are more powerful than anything any force-weilder, the rebel alliance, or the empire did in the films. It’s like ‘Oh, we’ve saved the galaxy, this is the greatest thing ever!’ And then, one kid later, ‘Oops, back to the beginning’, and even in the lifetimes of those who saved the galaxy before.

And what did these great head-strong galactic-threat conquerors do, in response? They ran away. And they ran, conveniently for the purposes of TFA’s intentions, right back to their original character roles, unchanged in any way, despite both being seniors. And why does Han have no money? He’s royalty and hero. TFA turns too many blind eyes for its story to be taken as being alongside the original trilogy.

TFA is not a progression, but a reset, and so renders the original trilogy futile and meaningless. And so, as I see it, either the original trilogy is real, or TFA is real. But both are incompatible in the same manifested reality.

Because TFA negates the value and meaning of the original trilogy’s sacrifices and victories, and because TFA’s value is its replication of those original trilogy experiences, its existence depends on the original trilogy evaluating as True.

TFA is dependent upon the original trilogy in all ways. But because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy, if the original trilogy evaluates as False, then TFA also evaluates as False. If TFA evaluates as True, then the original trilogy evaluates as False, and therefore TFA also evaluates as False. If the original trilogy evaluates evaluates as True, then TFA evaluates as False.

TFA evaluates as False against the original trilogy. So where the original trilogy is True, TFA not a part of its saga.

Delicieuxz said:

Also. before watching TFA, I started to watch Episode 2 of the prequel trilogy, thinking I would enjoy it while passing some time. I ended up shutting it off because it was just crap. I hadn’t seen any of it in years, and before putting it on, I thought it couldn’t be as bad as my memory was suggesting to me. Man, my memory knew what it was talking about. For the short time I watched it, Episode 2 was abysmal, like a half-assed clumsy children’s cartoon, made by people who didn’t know that making something nonsensical and flamboyant doesn’t amount to quality children’s programming.

I’ve only seen AOTC once, in the cinema when it first came out, but I’m glad to learn that my memory also knows what it’s talking about 😃

I wish I could say there was some degree of joking in my given impression, but I can’t. I was going to watch Ep 2, and then 3, but I’m not going to start with 3 now. Notice I didn’t even think to try starting with Ep 1.

To me, Star Wars is a trilogy, and it works as one. And again, to me, TFA is an amusing fanfiction, that is clearly fanfiction.

But I think that using quantum mechanics or something, and beyond time as we know it, that somewhere there exists a good SW prequel trilogy, and an authentic sequel trilogy. We just need to bring ourselves up from where we are, to that reality.

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Delicieuxz said:

Bingowings said:

The Triumph of The Will is a quoted inspiration for that composition. The original source might send shivers up our spines but for patriotic Germans it may have felt good back then. Even the title A New Hope has fascistic undertones. Hitlerism plays with the same heroic language that mythology does. Star Wars is modern mythology.

None of that is Nazi imagery, trying to evoke feelings based on expressed association. The A New Hope shot posted above is not trying to instil audience feeling by conjuring up a known counterpart, particularly a beaten-do-death and low brow cheap fall-back one, such as Nazi imagery in serious fiction.

I’m not sure if English is your first language but that is what I said. The imagery used in the Throne Room scene is meant to evoke the original intent of the Triumph of the Will composition, that of heroism and triumph not the feelings associated with Nazism. The Imperial uniforms and Jack Boots and even to some extent Vader’s helmet is supposed to remind us of Nazis.

I’m all for associating Nazism with evil. I think culture needs a bit of a reminder now and then but bear in mind the Nazis themselves pinched from Ancient Rome and even more Ancient India for some of it’s iconography and so did the first order and movies about both.

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Bingowings said:
I’m not sure if English is your first language but that is what I said. The imagery used in the Throne Room scene is meant to evoke the original intent of the Triumph of the Will composition, that of heroism and triumph not the feelings associated with Nazism. The Imperial uniforms and Jack Boots and even to some extent Vader’s helmet is supposed to remind us of Nazis.

Hmm, I see. I must have read your quote in a particular frame of mind.

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Delicieuxz said:
I can’t accept TFA as a real entry in the SW saga because it devalues the events in the original trilogy, and renders all those trials, lessons, and victories as nullified, by the very people who achieved them.

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/

This article is an excellent explanation of why some fans may be struggling with Lucas’ fairy tale ending being erased. Real life doesn’t always end with dancing plush toys.

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Interesting stuff. I’m going to repost that in the other thread and enjoy the reaction.

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Delicieuxz said:

Because TFA negates the value and meaning of the original trilogy’s sacrifices and victories, and because TFA’s value is its replication of those original trilogy experiences, its existence depends on the original trilogy evaluating as True.

TFA is dependent upon the original trilogy in all ways. But because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy, if the original trilogy evaluates as False, then TFA also evaluates as False. If TFA evaluates as True, then the original trilogy evaluates as False, and therefore TFA also evaluates as False. If the original trilogy evaluates evaluates as True, then TFA evaluates as False.

TFA evaluates as False against the original trilogy. So where the original trilogy is True, TFA not a part of its saga.

Are you a computer?

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Anchorhead said:

Delicieuxz said:
I can’t accept TFA as a real entry in the SW saga because it devalues the events in the original trilogy, and renders all those trials, lessons, and victories as nullified, by the very people who achieved them.

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/

This article is an excellent explanation of why some fans may be struggling with Lucas’ fairy tale ending being erased. Real life doesn’t always end with dancing plush toys.

It isn’t the ending of the original trilogy that would be negated by TFA, it’s the whole development throughout that period of time. Reality doesn’t revert. There may be similar things going on, but the states which create them are not the states which created the former. The considerations change. In TFA, Abrahms just reverts to the previous considerations and tries to rinse through them again.

Reality is not a do-over for the sake of millennial viewers’ emotions. Reality is not Han Solo smuggling and in the same money-trouble situations as we first encountered him in, as a senior citizen. Reality is not Leia being a general princess of the rebel resistance against a hegemony power with a mega weapon capable of destroying worlds in a single blast, running a fighter ship mission against the base while it powers up to fire on the rebel hideout… and as a senior, decades after she already ran that plot.

TFA isn’t ineligible as an equal entrant to the SW saga alongside the OT on grounds of it denying any emotions of the original trilogy, but because it technically and logically doesn’t add up, because it’s completely derivative, and because it makes no effort to have plausible explanations for why it’s simply a revert to OT tropes. A person has to be willing to shut down their mind and ignore all the details to be able to go along with TFA. And I expect that TFA is quite palatable to millennials, who it seems that the movie was made for.

So in the case of the SW OT, reality does seem to end with dancing bears, because it sure hasn’t shown itself thereafter.

TV’s Frink said:

Delicieuxz said:

Because TFA negates the value and meaning of the original trilogy’s sacrifices and victories, and because TFA’s value is its replication of those original trilogy experiences, its existence depends on the original trilogy evaluating as True.

TFA is dependent upon the original trilogy in all ways. But because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy, if the original trilogy evaluates as False, then TFA also evaluates as False. If TFA evaluates as True, then the original trilogy evaluates as False, and therefore TFA also evaluates as False. If the original trilogy evaluates evaluates as True, then TFA evaluates as False.

TFA evaluates as False against the original trilogy. So where the original trilogy is True, TFA not a part of its saga.

Are you a computer?

As I said, the TFA issues are not emotional ones, but logical ones. It logically and technically doesn’t work as a same-universe OT SW sequel.

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Delicieuxz said:
who it seems that the movie was made for.

That’s the biggest load of squirrel feces I’ve ever heard about TFA. With all the nostalgia boners they planted into the movie for us to receive it was mostly made for the fans. Also if you haven’t seen the OT you’re going to be lost as to why some of these character’s are so damn important. I took my sister (who is 15) to see TFA a couple of weeks ago and she thought Max Von Sydow’s character was Luke. So I don’t want to hear that shit.

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Lord Haseo said:

Delicieuxz said:
who it seems that the movie was made for.

That’s the biggest load of squirrel feces I’ve ever heard about TFA. With all the nostalgia boners they planted into the movie for us to receive it was mostly made for the fans. Also if you haven’t seen the OT you’re going to be lost as to why some of these character’s are so damn important. I took my sister (who is 15) to see TFA a couple of weeks ago and she thought Max Von Sydow’s character was Luke. So I don’t want to hear that shit.

Tough, that’s how it is. Made for fans, yes. The ones who are millennials (which doesn’t count your 15 year old sister, if she is unfamiliar with SW) and who want their own version of the OT experience - by making a flyby of OT setups and re-performing them.

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Delicieuxz said:

Lord Haseo said:

Delicieuxz said:
who it seems that the movie was made for.

That’s the biggest load of squirrel feces I’ve ever heard about TFA. With all the nostalgia boners they planted into the movie for us to receive it was mostly made for the fans. Also if you haven’t seen the OT you’re going to be lost as to why some of these character’s are so damn important. I took my sister (who is 15) to see TFA a couple of weeks ago and she thought Max Von Sydow’s character was Luke. So I don’t want to hear that shit.

Tough, that’s how it is. Made for fans, yes. The ones who are millennials (which doesn’t count your 15 year old sister, if she is unfamiliar with SW) and who want their own version of the OT experience - by making a flyby of OT setups and re-performing them.

Well most millennials won’t watch the OT before watching the TFA. I couldn’t get my 44 year old father to see the OT so most of them are just going to gloss over them.

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Here’s another point: TFA is openly for the fans. It didn’t come carrying its own voice or knowing part of the saga that needed to be told, it came to celebrate and re-experience what already was.

From the start, it wasn’t designed to be the focused reality of the continuation of SW, but to conjure up images from the part of the SW reality which has already completed, while putting those images within the framework of a continuing story.

There is a difference between what the story that comes from the goals of TFA is, and what a story made to be only its own self, in its own space, would be. TFA takes the slot of this next period of SW, but uses it as a fanciful flashback. It breaks stride with SW OT, and while it presents itself using many of the same tones, and is excellent in doing that, it doesn’t carry what was established in SW forward, and seems to exist out of a distinct frame of mind from the OT, while presenting facsimile images.

I think it’s described very well as being a fanfic.

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The film was made to appeal to fans but it made for the shareholders of Disney.

The corporate model of how to appeal to brand loyalty doesn’t often manifest as good storytelling.
The best MCU stories have arguably been with lesser known superheroes which gave the adapters a freer hand.

Star Wars is very well known so a corporate entity like Disney will want to make sure all the appealing ingredients are there on view to lure customers to buy product, which can limit the film as a piece of art.

Such creations tend to feel like greatest hits medleys in concerts rather than great songs in their own right.

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One thing I like about this movie is at least Han shot first like he always did 😉

By the way Han shot first.

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Delicieuxz said:

Anchorhead said:

Delicieuxz said:
I can’t accept TFA as a real entry in the SW saga because it devalues the events in the original trilogy, and renders all those trials, lessons, and victories as nullified, by the very people who achieved them.

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/

This article is an excellent explanation of why some fans may be struggling with Lucas’ fairy tale ending being erased. Real life doesn’t always end with dancing plush toys.

It isn’t the ending of the original trilogy that would be negated by TFA, it’s the whole development throughout that period of time. Reality doesn’t revert. There may be similar things going on, but the states which create them are not the states which created the former. The considerations change. In TFA, Abrahms just reverts to the previous considerations and tries to rinse through them again.

Reality is not a do-over for the sake of millennial viewers’ emotions. Reality is not Han Solo smuggling and in the same money-trouble situations as we first encountered him in, as a senior citizen. Reality is not Leia being a general princess of the rebel resistance against a hegemony power with a mega weapon capable of destroying worlds in a single blast, running a fighter ship mission against the base while it powers up to fire on the rebel hideout… and as a senior, decades after she already ran that plot.

TFA isn’t ineligible as an equal entrant to the SW saga alongside the OT on grounds of it denying any emotions of the original trilogy, but because it technically and logically doesn’t add up, because it’s completely derivative, and because it makes no effort to have plausible explanations for why it’s simply a revert to OT tropes. A person has to be willing to shut down their mind and ignore all the details to be able to go along with TFA. And I expect that TFA is quite palatable to millennials, who it seems that the movie was made for.

So in the case of the SW OT, reality does seem to end with dancing bears, because it sure hasn’t shown itself thereafter.

TV’s Frink said:

Delicieuxz said:

Because TFA negates the value and meaning of the original trilogy’s sacrifices and victories, and because TFA’s value is its replication of those original trilogy experiences, its existence depends on the original trilogy evaluating as True.

TFA is dependent upon the original trilogy in all ways. But because TFA negates the victories and outcomes of the original trilogy, if the original trilogy evaluates as False, then TFA also evaluates as False. If TFA evaluates as True, then the original trilogy evaluates as False, and therefore TFA also evaluates as False. If the original trilogy evaluates evaluates as True, then TFA evaluates as False.

TFA evaluates as False against the original trilogy. So where the original trilogy is True, TFA not a part of its saga.

Are you a computer?

As I said, the TFA issues are not emotional ones, but logical ones. It logically and technically doesn’t work as a same-universe OT SW sequel.

Yep, you’re definitely a computer.