Alderaan said:
It’s even dumber because this would have been very easy to fix. All they had to do was cutout the last 20 seconds of the fight when Rey beats his ass. As soon as Rey channels the force and fights off Kylo for just and instant, to momentarily save herself, the planet could have collapsed and separated the two of them, saving Rey and her companions in the process.
Why? So people can bitch more about conveniences in TFA? I’ll pass on that.
Did you guys not watch the fight? At what point did Vader express any desire to torture Luke or inflict pain on him? He started the fight by just standing there and blocking Luke’s attacks. His only desire was to put Luke in the freezing chamber and put him to sleep.
As the fight drags on, Vader flings objects at him and hurts him, but I wouldn’t call it sadistic.
Then he finally starts to get pissed off and wails at the kid. Still, even after all of that, he was just trying to corner Luke and make him an offer he couldn’t refuse.
It was only after Luke hurt him that Vader finally dispensed with all pretense and chopped his hand off in about 2 seconds. That will teach you son! Now listen to your papa and do as I say.
brash_stryker said:
Think about the OT. It was established early in ANH that Vader could choke people to death. And yet Vader never ONCE tried it against Luke. Would have ended the fight pretty quick wouldn’t it, if Vader had just choked him to the point of unconsciousness? Well it’s pretty obvious to me that Vader couldn’t because of how strong Luke was in the force. That’s what sets the Jedi apart from the normal people in this universe, otherwise the logic of it would all fall apart.Vader never wanted to kill Luke because he was Vader’s son.
Let’s ignore the fact i said nothing about killing for a moment. Are you saying then that any dark Jedi who WANTS to kill another Jedi, could just do it? Choke em right there? Doesn’t that render the Jedi’s stance of using the force only for “knowledge or defence, never for attack”, kind of stupid? Not to mention that your assertion would mean that the only way we could have a battle between a Jedi and darksider without the darksider just winning automatically is if the darksider…for some reason…just didn’t want to kill them.
I can feel the tension already.
brash_stryker said:
Let’s ignore the fact i said nothing about killing for a moment. Are you saying then that any dark Jedi who WANTS to kill another Jedi, could just do it? Choke em right there? Doesn’t that render the Jedi’s stance of using the force only for “knowledge or defence, never for attack”, kind of stupid?
OK, let’s say I agree with you on that point. Even if that is the case, in the EXACT SAME SCENE Kylo flings Rey against a tree and knocks her out without any effort. If she were able to shield him off with her force powers, then why didn’t she do it then? Because we needed to see Kylo and Finn fight 1 on 1 first?
The film just does whatever it wants on a minute by minute basis.
It is just a poorly written.
His only desire was to put Luke in the freezing chamber and put him to sleep.
Which would have been way easier with both of the alternatives. Not as entertaining but more logical due to Vader’s monumental advantage in terms of his command of The Force. But that didn’t happen so the fight scene could take place and that Luke can have the bomb dropped on him. I repeat again WHO CARES?
Which would have been way easier with both of the alternatives. Not as entertaining but more logical due to Vader’s monumental advantage in terms of his command of The Force. But that didn’t happen so the fight scene could take place and that Luke can have the bomb dropped on him. I repeat again WHO CARES?
Because the first two hours of Empire all built up to that moment. It’s not about “nitpicking” or “who cares?” or “it’s just a movie”. It’s about the first 2 hours MATCHING with the last 15 minutes.
MATCHING. CONSISTENT. MATCHING. CONSISTENT.
Everything in Empire Strikes Back built to that climax. There is no inconsistency. Whatever nitpicks you can find in that script (or any other good one, for example) are most likely irrelevant because of how harmoniously everything was designed to work together as a story.
Almost nothing in TFA, however, builds towards Rey beating Kylo’s ass. Even in the same final climactic scene, it is demonstrated that Kylo’s force powers are exponentially more powerful than Rey’s. Then suddenly, for no reason, he forgets he has those abilities.
OK, let’s say I agree with you on that point. Even if that is the case, in the EXACT SAME SCENE Kylo flings Rey against a tree and knocks her out without any effort. If she were able to shield him off with her force powers, then why didn’t she do it then? Because we needed to see Kylo and Finn fight 1 on 1 first?
The film just does whatever it wants on a minute by minute basis.
It is just a poorly written.
Because Rey is only now fully “awakened” and letting in the force. She had her vision which ended with a voice saying “these are your first steps”. She then ran from it (rejecting the saber and running away from Maz’s castle) but now upon seeing her friend injured, soon to be killed, she embraces it. The saber, the very thing she was so scared of, and the embodiment of her growing connection to the force, literally leaping into her hand.
It’s symbolic. That is the moment when she finally opens up to the force fully and embraces what she truly is.
brash_stryker said:
Let’s ignore the fact i said nothing about killing for a moment. Are you saying then that any dark Jedi who WANTS to kill another Jedi, could just do it? Choke em right there? Doesn’t that render the Jedi’s stance of using the force only for “knowledge or defence, never for attack”, kind of stupid?If she were able to shield him off with her force powers, then why didn’t she do it then? Because we needed to see Kylo and Finn fight 1 on 1 first?
Because just like Luke she’s discovering The Force and she’s bound to be inconsistent. Like how Luke was able to blow up the Death Star in ANH (which is pretty much impossible) but seemed to have a bit of trouble getting his lightsaber out of the snow in ESB.
Lord Haseo said:
Because just like Luke she’s discovering The Force and she’s bound to be inconsistent. Like how Luke was able to blow up the Death Star in ANH (which is pretty much impossible) but seemed to have a bit of trouble getting his lightsaber out of the snow in ESB.
I’m sure the comparison is lost on you, but this is like arguing with a prequel fan.
brash_stryker said:
Because Rey is only now fully “awakened” and letting in the force. She had her vision which ended with a voice saying “these are your first steps”.
So when she was “awakened” by the vision, how did Kylo freeze her in place and knock her unconscious with an effortless wave of his hand?
If she was “awakened” by the time of the final fight, how was Kylo able to throw her against a tree from 30 yards away?
Lord Haseo said:
Because just like Luke she’s discovering The Force and she’s bound to be inconsistent. Like how Luke was able to blow up the Death Star in ANH (which is pretty much impossible) but seemed to have a bit of trouble getting his lightsaber out of the snow in ESB.I’m sure the comparison is lost on you, but this is like arguing with a prequel fan.
Nice rebuttal lol
brash_stryker said:
Because Rey is only now fully “awakened” and letting in the force. She had her vision which ended with a voice saying “these are your first steps”.So when she was “awakened” by the vision, how did Kylo freeze her in place and knock her unconscious with an effortless wave of his hand?
If she was “awakened” by the time of the final fight, how was Kylo able to throw her against a tree from 30 yards away?
I did say FULLY awakened. Did you ignore also how I pointed out the significance of the “first steps” line? Until she saw Finn dying, she was running from her force connection and the saber itself, which is symbolic of her abilities.
Seeing her friend in danger leads to that Excalibur moment, which symbolises that she is finally letting it all in and ready to embrace being a Jedi.
Edit: For clarity’s sake, so we can avoid further back and forths, the moment she force grabs the saber (accepting that to save her friend, she must embrace her destiny) THAT is when Rey is finally, truly “Awakened”, and gains a more thorough mastery of her abilities.
Which would have been way easier with both of the alternatives. Not as entertaining but more logical due to Vader’s monumental advantage in terms of his command of The Force. But that didn’t happen so the fight scene could take place and that Luke can have the bomb dropped on him. I repeat again WHO CARES?
Because the first two hours of Empire all built up to that moment. It’s not about “nitpicking” or “who cares?” or “it’s just a movie”. It’s about the first 2 hours MATCHING with the last 15 minutes.
MATCHING. CONSISTENT. MATCHING. CONSISTENT.
Everything in Empire Strikes Back built to that climax. There is no inconsistency. Whatever nitpicks you can find in that script (or any other good one, for example) are most likely irrelevant because of how harmoniously everything was designed to work together as a story.
Almost nothing in TFA, however, builds towards Rey beating Kylo’s ass. Even in the same final climactic scene, it is demonstrated that Kylo’s force powers are exponentially more powerful than Rey’s. Then suddenly, for no reason, he forgets he has those abilities.
There’s still nothing that physically held back Vader from Force Choking out Luke and he doesn’t because the plot requires him not to even though if that would make Vader’s job easier. And I’m supposed to be fine with that…
Kylo “forgets” to use his powers against Rey because the plot requires him not to even though it would make his job easier. And now suddenly that type of thing is a tragedy.
That hypocrisy though.
I think people, who base their case solely on their arbitrary judgement of what is a consistent plot and what is not without providing any solid argument whatsoever, really shouldn’t accuse anybody of lazy writing. It kinda makes them look pathetic and butt-hurt and that is not a pretty sight.
I honestly can’t believe that anybody claiming to be a Star Wars fan could genuinely think that AOTC or any of the prequels is better than TFA.
I am not doing so out of a sheer sense of misplaced humor if that is what you might be suspecting…my frustration is genuine…and the realization that it has brought to mind is equally so.
You are actually serious. You actually prefer the prequels to TFA. Lunacy.
I would rather watch the Rathtar scene from TFA on repeat for two hours than have to sit through one viewing of the droid factory scene where CGI threepio get his head stuck on a battle droid.
I would rather watch a film with more space/droid battles than one in which yet another Death Star is blown up with even less rationale than the prior two efforts…
You’re nuts mate. It doesn’t matter how ‘original’ the prequels are. They were long-winded, boring cartoons filled with bad dialogue, convoluted plots, and terrible, all-style-no-substance set pieces. In addition to being bad in their own right, they also damaged the original trilogy by ret-conning key characters and moments.
A semen and dog shit sandwich for lunch is ‘original’, but I’ll take good ol’ ham and cheese any day of the week.
Judging from some of the posts I’ve seen, there are a lot of guys here who either study film, work in film, or teach film - genuine, educated fans of the medium we call cinema. No true lover of cinema can honestly believe (or successfully argue) that the prequels are good movies. They just can’t. they can try, but they’re wrong. This is not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact.
All I can assume is there are some people here who either a) like to show off their ‘superior’ knowledge of film theory by championing a contrary view or b) just like to argue.
War does not make one great.
I think it’s fairly well established that use of the Force is not a game of top trumps.
Conjecture like “if Rey is awakened why couldn’t she stop the force push on to the tree” this isn’t a video game where you have force levels and you automatically stop Force Push attacks. She’s not really expecting Kylo Ren to suddenly throw her against a tree and is not making any concerted effort to combat that.
Rey beats Ren because she finds some strength in the force, who knows maybe Qui Gon Jin is talking to her or Luke is doing something it’s not really important, she takes him by surprise and as he’s not in a focussed state of mind and is already pretty beat up.
“She’s not ready” is not the theme of THIS film. If anyone is not ready it’s Kylo Ren, masterful with tricks and wizardry but prone to mistake and rash behaviour. Instead of finishing her off when he had the chance he gives her time to think, in hope that she can become an apprentice.
As for the “lightsaber belongs to me” it’s a family heirloom to him, I got the impression he knew who’s it was - I guess there could be a bit more to it than that.
CrazyH said:
“She’s not ready” is not the theme of THIS film.
I didn’t say it was. I was giving an example of good storytelling. The body of a script that matches with its ending. Not only that, but every single detail in that script built toward the climax and they all worked in perfect harmony with each other.
In TFA, the body of the script portrays Kylo as physically impervious throughout the film. The ending shows him getting his ass kicked by two people who didn’t have a clue what they were doing. It’s like taking a pig’s head and stuffing it onto the body of a centipede. They don’t match. It sucks.
You compare Kylo at the beginning of the movie to Kylo at the end of the movie and ignore every instance in between where his flaws, weaknesses and errors are progressively shown. On Jakku he acts badass, but not much later we see him struggle with the light side; he captures Rey, but fails to get the map out of her; then she even escapes, the resistance attacks and his father shows up, things get worse and worse for Kylo and in the end he has a lightsabre battle while emotionally and physically wounded. There clearly is a progression.
Ceci n’est pas une signature.
The fundamental flaw with tfa is that it was rushed. From the moment Disney purchased I bet the pressure was on to get a film out ASAP and it shows.
The fundamental flaw with tfa is that it was rushed. From the moment Disney purchased I bet the pressure was on to get a film out ASAP and it shows.
Wait, what are you doing in this thread? If anyone is to take what you said in your thread seriously, this thread is only for reviews, not what you didn’t like! Why would you even read this thread if you didn’t hate the movie completely? Why!1!1!!!
You compare Kylo at the beginning of the movie to Kylo at the end of the movie and ignore every instance in between where his flaws, weaknesses and errors are progressively shown. On Jakku he acts badass, but not much later we see him struggle with the light side; he captures Rey, but fails to get the map out of her; then she even escapes, the resistance attacks and his father shows up, things get worse and worse for Kylo and in the end he has a lightsabre battle while emotionally and physically wounded. There clearly is a progression.
Let’s be fair to him, if we fell asleep during the movie, we’d feel that way too.
- Then Luke somehow conveniently finds part of Leia’s message while cleaning R2
Of your complaints, this is the only one that is a plot convenience. Having one or two of these at the beginning of a story is very standard. The audience usually has no problem with it as long as the storyteller doesn’t make it obviously absurd. The idea to have Luke clean dirt out of R2 and then jar the message out of his memory is a very subtle way to get the story started.
I always thought that R2 had intentionally played the snippet of Leia’s message as a way to trick Luke into removing the restraining bolt?
All I can assume is there are some people here who either a) like to show off their ‘superior’ knowledge of film theory by championing a contrary view or b) just like to argue.
I think we know it’s
Alderaan said:
It’s even dumber because this would have been very easy to fix. All they had to do was cutout the last 20 seconds of the fight when Rey beats his ass. As soon as Rey channels the force and fights off Kylo for just and instant, to momentarily save herself, the planet could have collapsed and separated the two of them, saving Rey and her companions in the process.Why? So people can bitch more about conveniences in TFA? I’ll pass on that.
This is exactly what I was talking about with my post about Lucas never having a chance. With some people here, JJ never had a chance. The separation of the two by the planet was already (incorrectly) bitched about as lazy writing by one of our other fun-time reviewers.
Alderaan said:
It’s even dumber because this would have been very easy to fix. All they had to do was cutout the last 20 seconds of the fight when Rey beats his ass. As soon as Rey channels the force and fights off Kylo for just and instant, to momentarily save herself, the planet could have collapsed and separated the two of them, saving Rey and her companions in the process.Why? So people can bitch more about conveniences in TFA? I’ll pass on that.
This is exactly what I was talking about with my post about Lucas never having a chance. With some people here, JJ never had a chance. The separation of the two by the planet was already (incorrectly*) bitched about as lazy writing by one of our other fun-time reviewers.
“incorrectly” because it was claimed the separation created an artificial means for Rey to keep Ren alive, when in fact she had a chance to finish him, considered it, didn’t do it, and THEN the planet separated them*
**I love the idea of the planet as a character
JEDIT THING 1 AND JEDIT THING 2: I meant to edit the above, not quote it…and the asterisk formatting of the forum strikes back…er…strikes again.