It’s slightly different but practically the same. If it were made in Italy with with a lower budget in the early 1980s it would have been called a Star Wars rip-off.
Where as arguably TPM could be described as a Escape From Galaxy 3 rip-off.
The plot is defined by the things that happen to the characters. The situations.
So a young restless person, living in a wilderness meets an older mentor figure and a separate possible love interest on a quest to deliver information to an underdog resistance movement. They enter a hub of illegal activity, a bar and get into trouble. A planet is destroyed by the antagonists with a super-weapon that becomes the final test for the plucky rebels. The main characters launch a rescue mission to save a female character being tortured by the antagonist for the information. The mentor is killed by the antagonist who has a close connection to him while the protagonist and his/her allies are unable to assist because of a large chasm obstacle. The weapon is destroyed but the principle antagonists have done damage and survived. The protagonist has been pointed onto a path where they will receive further instruction from another stronger tutor.
These are plot points.
The characters in TFA are new and interesting and played well and directed well but they are doing the same thing as the other characters in first film. It’s just too similar to be engaging to me.
Other plots could be used with these characters and set up two more films and be enjoying but new, that didn’t happen.
So while I wasn’t furious with the film as I was with TPM and while it’s a much better constructed film than any of the prequels I was indifferent to the finer qualities of the piece because the plot was just too familiar.
You’re still boiling down to it’s barest essentials and omit details. If you actually watch the film it feels completely different. A decent percentage of the similarities are reworked/repackaged to give a different feel to the film
If it wasn’t for Death Star 3, these reboot complaints would largely disappear I think. It’s the one extraneous plot element that spoils it for many (and takes the shine off it for me a bit too). As Lord Haseo said, many of the other similarities have been remixed enough that they feel sufficiently different, and others can be chalked down to it following the classic ‘Hero’s Journey’ formula.
Somewhat relavent to this discussion:
“For us it was very purposefully going backwards to go forwards — a purposeful step backwards to tell a new story with new characters,” -Abrams
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/watch-32-minute-talk-with-jj-abrams-and-lawrence-kasdan-about-star-wars-the-force-awakens-and-more-20151222
A rather simple conclusion, but it makes sense the more I thought about it. Nothing ground breaking, but to me, it’s a smart move because he’s basically saying, if we the audience want to be engaged with these new characters, the setting should feel familiar. Yes, Rey DOES parallel Luke in significant ways (and some not), but that was the point. If we want to propel a new story, it needs to first establish our new cast in a way that is recognizable. It establishes what these characters want more clearly and therefore are able to sympathize with them more easily. Now, it’s not to say these characters need to mirror EXACTLY to their shadow characters, but enough to get the ball rolling. THEN can you do more wild and inventive story telling. It all hinges on what Episode VIII will do, but the optimistic side of me says, well, they already did A LOT of callbacks to not only ANH, but parts of Empire and Jedi. Surely they’re not dumb enough to repeat this in the next film? Some of you are rolling your eyes at me, and I don’t blame you.
Overall, I just feel it was a smart move. Was it a flawless move? NO! However, it was decent enough for me.
The Rise of Failures
My wife brought up an interesting question tonight - why does Ren say to Rey about Luke’s lightsaber, “That belongs to me”?
I assumed because Ren was on a crusade to hoarde anything that used to belong to his grandpa. But maybe there’s some other imaginative reason I’m not picking up.
The Rise of Failures
My wife brought up an interesting question tonight - why does Ren say to Rey about Luke’s lightsaber, “That belongs to me”?
He says it to Finn…and for some reason I think there’s more to it than typical bad guy arrogance (i.e. anything I want is automatically mine). Maybe Luke recovered it and had promised it to his nephew “when he was old enough”. But Ben got impatient, and now we have Kylo Ren.
My wife brought up an interesting question tonight - why does Ren say to Rey about Luke’s lightsaber, “That belongs to me”?
I think he says that to Finn. Would make more sense because he’s not Force Sensitive.
Did anyone post these yet?
https://twitter.com/kylor3n?lang=en
Well shoot, I misremembered that one pretty bad. Still, could be an interesting story behind it.
Did anyone post these yet?
https://twitter.com/kylor3n?lang=en
The only thing that pisses me off is that the Emo Kylo Ren bollocks is actually taken uber seriously.
If it wasn’t for Death Star 3, these reboot complaints would largely disappear I think. It’s the one extraneous plot element that spoils it for many (and takes the shine off it for me a bit too). As Lord Haseo said, many of the other similarities have been remixed enough that they feel sufficiently different, and others can be chalked down to it following the classic ‘Hero’s Journey’ formula.
Films “borrow” from each other all the time.
Good hypothetical: film XYZ has a vision for an original or at least fresh take on a story it wants to tell. It may borrow some ideas from other films, but at the same time it is understood that those creative ideas had dramatic intent behind them and they are used in the new film for the same express purposes.
Bad hypothetical: film CYA doesn’t have a clear vision for an original or at least fresh take on a story that it wants to tell. It borrows a lot from other films, or another film specifically, because that’s kind of the whole idea for making film CYA. The creative ideas that are copied and pasted from the original film were constructed in such a way that they have attached to them clear and defined dramatic intent – but in the new film CYA, they are used without regard for their original purpose. Picture a perfectly beautiful and elaborate snowman, without a flaw to it, sitting on a beach in Hawaii and not melting. They are out of place.
And to me, that’s the problem with the story in TFA. It’s not that it borrowed things from ANH. As long as it did so in moderation, I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as it wasn’t boring and the story were well constructed. But it’s not. There’s no vision for this film, no story under the story that it wants to tell. It’s just a Star Wars ripoff. A $350 million fan film. Highly professional looking and fun, it has some life, but like it was written by amateurs.
Alderaan said:
I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as it wasn’t boring
This one doesn’t want to be saved.
I think whomever is doing those parody Twitter accounts is also writing Alderaan’s posts.
TV’s Frink said:
I’m not sure if you stayed awake during the whole film, or you just willfully ignore things that don’t support your positions. Are you claiming that Ren’s interrogation of Rey showed his virtually unlimited power?His physical power ldo.
Not sure what “ldo” means, but he uses the Force. How is “physical power” relevant?
I’m honestly confused what you are trying to say.
Rey stood up to him mentally, and that’s fine. I actually liked that scene quite a bit in the film.
But physically, Kylo trashed her and everyone else he encountered despite whatever insecurities he might have been fostering. He froze Rey and knocked her out with an effortless wave of his hand. He telekinetically picked her up and flung her through the air into a tree. He froze Poe Dameron in place and had him arrested. He stopped blaster bolts in mid air. He was not physically threatened in the entire film.
But then, at the end, he suddenly forgets he has these powers and gets his ass beat. Insecurity is not the reason for his loss, because he was just as insecure when he flung Rey through the air and knocked her out 2 minutes earlier IN THE EXACT SAME SCENE. The only explanation for Rey nearly killing Kylo is that someone wrote the script with one thing in mind, and someone else with more power decided they wanted a different ending with something else in mind.
The rest of the script and the ending do not match.
Alderaan said:
I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as it wasn’t boringThis one doesn’t want to be saved.
I think whomever is doing those parody Twitter accounts is also writing Alderaan’s posts.
You only quoted half of a conditional statement, and deleted the other half because it didn’t conform to your view. Intellectually dishonest, which calls into question the intent behind your posts. Maybe you should re-examine your posting behavior.
TV’s Frink said:
I’m not sure if you stayed awake during the whole film, or you just willfully ignore things that don’t support your positions. Are you claiming that Ren’s interrogation of Rey showed his virtually unlimited power?His physical power ldo.
Not sure what “ldo” means, but he uses the Force. How is “physical power” relevant?
I’m honestly confused what you are trying to say.
Rey stood up to him mentally, and that’s fine. I actually liked that scene quite a bit in the film.
He froze Rey and knocked her out with an effortless wave of his hand. He telekinetically picked her up and flung her through the air into a tree.
He froze Poe Dameron in place and had him arrested. He stopped blaster bolts in mid air. He was not physically threatened in the entire film.
Did you see Rey throw up a Force Shield? Without it she’s as helpless as Poe who isn’t Force Sensitive
Not sure why you included my post in that half-a-statement thing…
But then, at the end, he suddenly forgets he has these powers and gets his ass beat. Insecurity is not the reason for his loss, because he was just as insecure when he flung Rey through the air and knocked her out 2 minutes earlier IN THE EXACT SAME SCENE. The only explanation for Rey nearly killing Kylo is that someone wrote the script with one thing in mind, and someone else with more power decided they wanted a different ending with something else in mind.
The rest of the script and the ending do not match.
Yep, you definitely fell asleep during the movie. Multiple times.
Alderaan said:
I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as it wasn’t boringThis one doesn’t want to be saved.
I think whomever is doing those parody Twitter accounts is also writing Alderaan’s posts.
You only quoted half of a conditional statement, and deleted the other half because it didn’t conform to your view. Intellectually dishonest, which calls into question the intent behind your posts. Maybe you should re-examine your posting behavior.
Seeing as how we’ve already established the only way in which TFA can be considered a quasi carbon copy of ANH is if you omit details I didn’t think it was pertinent to actually attempt to talk about the film in detail. Because if we take them apart scene by scene and compare them WITH DETAIL it is obvious that the films while similar are pretty different. But you guys wouldn’t be interested in that…Just a memeish vague checklist is sufficient.
TV’s Frink said:
I’m not sure if you stayed awake during the whole film, or you just willfully ignore things that don’t support your positions. Are you claiming that Ren’s interrogation of Rey showed his virtually unlimited power?His physical power ldo.
Not sure what “ldo” means, but he uses the Force. How is “physical power” relevant?
I’m honestly confused what you are trying to say.
Rey stood up to him mentally, and that’s fine. I actually liked that scene quite a bit in the film.
But physically, Kylo trashed her and everyone else he encountered despite whatever insecurities he might have been fostering. He froze Rey and knocked her out with an effortless wave of his hand. He telekinetically picked her up and flung her through the air into a tree. He froze Poe Dameron in place and had him arrested. He stopped blaster bolts in mid air. He was not physically threatened in the entire film.
But then, at the end, he suddenly forgets he has these powers and gets his ass beat. Insecurity is not the reason for his loss, because he was just as insecure when he flung Rey through the air and knocked her out 2 minutes earlier IN THE EXACT SAME SCENE. The only explanation for Rey nearly killing Kylo is that someone wrote the script with one thing in mind, and someone else with more power decided they wanted a different ending with something else in mind.
The rest of the script and the ending do not match.
I think the problem here is how you’re completely separating the mental and physical prowess of a Jedi/force user. There’s always been an element of mind/spirit over matter in the OT. Therefore it stands to reason that if you’re of strong mind/spirit (or have recently become so because the force has “awakened” in you) then you have some sort of defence against these force attacks.
Think about the OT. It was established early in ANH that Vader could choke people to death. And yet Vader never ONCE tried it against Luke. Would have ended the fight pretty quick wouldn’t it, if Vader had just choked him to the point of unconsciousness? Well it’s pretty obvious to me that Vader couldn’t because of how strong Luke was in the force. That’s what sets the Jedi apart from the normal people in this universe, otherwise the logic of it would all fall apart.
brash_stryker said:
Think about the OT. It was established early in ANH that Vader could choke people to death. And yet Vader never ONCE tried it against Luke. Would have ended the right pretty quick wouldn’t it, if Vader had just choked him to the point of unconsciousness? Well it’s pretty obvious to me that Vader couldn’t because of how strong Luke was in the force. That’s what sets the Jedi apart from the normal people in this universe, otherwise the logic of it would all fall apart.
Someone else brought this up and it’s a great point. Also Vader could have simply picked Luke up with the force, placed him in the Carbonite chamber, held him down with the force and hit the switch but just like Ren he “forgot” he could do that. And Vader is a MASTER of the Dark Side; Kylo Ren even being a Dark Side Adept is up for serious debate.
But then, at the end, he suddenly forgets he has these powers and gets his ass beat. Insecurity is not the reason for his loss, because he was just as insecure when he flung Rey through the air and knocked her out 2 minutes earlier IN THE EXACT SAME SCENE. The only explanation for Rey nearly killing Kylo is that someone wrote the script with one thing in mind, and someone else with more power decided they wanted a different ending with something else in mind.
The rest of the script and the ending do not match.
Yep, you definitely fell asleep during the movie. Multiple times.
I didn’t. I saw the film twice. As I pointed out in another post, look at Empire Strikes Back. The entire script is well orchestrated. Everything works in harmony. The meat and potatoes of the story builds towards and enhances the ending. Luke succeeds in many things, and yet each time he succeeds, the message being emphasized (the story within the story) is … HE … IS … NOT … READY.
Luke summons his lightsaber and escapes the Wampa cave. This scene shows remarkable growth in his force abilities compared to the last time we saw him. And yet what happens? He wanders out into a blizzard and collapses. He would have died if Han had not saved him. HE … IS … NOT … READY.
Luke blows up the AT-AT. Again, look how capable he is in this scene. He’s no longer this young desert farm boy, he actually looks like a mature freedom fighter. And yet what happens? The rebels get massacred, it’s not even a fair fight. Luke has to run away. HE … IS … NOT … READY … to defeat Vader and the Empire.
Luke trains with Yoda on Dagobah. He appears to be a good student and learning. Then he goes into the cave and fails Yoda’s test. He (and the audience) are subconsciously reminded … HE … IS … NOT … READY … to face Darth Vader.
Luke continues his training. Again, he progresses and impresses Yoda, but then he fails to lift the X-wing. Yoda calls him a failure. The reminder? HE … IS … NOT … READY.
Finally, at the end of Act 2, Luke is faced with a crisis decision. He has to decide if he will stay on Dagobah and finish his training, or if he will prematurely confront Vader on Bespin in an attempt to save his friends. Yoda and Obi-Wan plead with him to stay and complete his training. Their message to him is that … HE … IS … NOT … READY. And yet Luke chooses to leave anyway. He wants to save his friends. He confronts Vader in their battle at the end of the film.
And what happens in the ending?
We find out that Luke is not ready. He gets his ass beat. The entire story built up to that ending and they matched.
In TFA, the rest of the story and the ending do not match. There is no skillfully executed buildup toward an ending that should see Rey defeat Kylo. We are already well into Act 3 before Rey breaks loose on Starkiller and we hear the line “she’s just beginning to test her abilities”. She cannot possibly defeat him based on the rest of the story.
It’s even dumber because this would have been very easy to fix. All they had to do was cutout the last 20 seconds of the fight when Rey beats his ass. As soon as Rey channels the force and fights off Kylo for just and instant, to momentarily save herself, the planet could have collapsed and separated the two of them, saving Rey and her companions in the process.
brash_stryker said:
Think about the OT. It was established early in ANH that Vader could choke people to death. And yet Vader never ONCE tried it against Luke. Would have ended the fight pretty quick wouldn’t it, if Vader had just choked him to the point of unconsciousness? Well it’s pretty obvious to me that Vader couldn’t because of how strong Luke was in the force. That’s what sets the Jedi apart from the normal people in this universe, otherwise the logic of it would all fall apart.
Vader never wanted to kill Luke because he was Vader’s son.
brash_stryker said:
Think about the OT. It was established early in ANH that Vader could choke people to death. And yet Vader never ONCE tried it against Luke. Would have ended the fight pretty quick wouldn’t it, if Vader had just choked him to the point of unconsciousness? Well it’s pretty obvious to me that Vader couldn’t because of how strong Luke was in the force. That’s what sets the Jedi apart from the normal people in this universe, otherwise the logic of it would all fall apart.Vader never wanted to kill Luke because he was Vader’s son.
brash_stryker said:
if Vader had just choked him to the point of UNCONSCIOUSNESS
Lord have mercy lol