ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 31

Frank your Majesty said:

imperialscum said:

One simply don’t hang up with rebels on an ice planet performing patrols for fun. Hanging around with rebels is not like being in a social club. You don’t simply associate yourself with people who are being perceived by the Empire as worst-than-criminals just to hang around with “friends”.

Where is that stated in the script? Isn’t this also just an interpretation based on your impression? Or is your impression above everyone else’s?

Yes the above was my impression that I added to the things that are already “crystal clear”, i.e. that he joined the rebels (see the part of my post you cut out). He is there with the rebels, performs the patrols, wears rebel insignia, reports to the General, General expresses his regret to loose a fighter like him, etc. All this is explicitly in the script and in the film.

There is no “crystal clear” evidence. Unless Han explicitely states in the movie “I am part of the rebel alliance”, there is room for interpretation. Just accept that other people might interpret the same thing in another way, instead of keeping up this fruitless discussion. At this point, all arguments have been made for and against it.

Frank your Majesty said:

There is no “crystal clear” evidence. Unless Han explicitely states in the movie “I am part of the rebel alliance”, there is room for interpretation. Just accept that other people might interpret the same thing in another way, instead of keeping up this fruitless discussion. At this point, all arguments have been made for and against it.

Even if Han explicitly said “I am part of the rebel alliance” you could still claim he lied.

Now please wake up and fasten your seatbelt as we are about to land in Reality.

Bosk said:

The fact that he’s called ‘Captain’ solo denotes he is part of some kind of hierarchical structure.

Like Captain Jack Sparrow?

DuracellEnergizer said:

*peeks in thread*

*automatically has misanthropic sentiments reinforced*

*develops sudden craving for alcohol*

*leaves*

*promises never to return*

*knows that promise will be inevitably broken*

*goes into a corner to cry*

Alcohol is the path to the dark side. Booze leads to hang over, hang over leads to regret, regret leads to drinking (more booze). I sense much alcohol in you… (although that could just be the alcohol on me talking…) 😉

imperialscum said:

Well as I said, your whole argument is based on things you made up yourself (your “impression” as you call it) that go against what is actually in the script/film. He joined the rebels. That is crystal clear whether you want to accept it or not. One simply don’t hang up with rebels on an ice planet performing patrols for fun. Hanging around with rebels is not like being in a social club. You don’t simply associate yourself with people who are being perceived by the Empire as worst-than-criminals just to hang around with “friends”.

I was using ‘social gatherings’ analogously in place of ‘dangerous job’ and ‘club/society’ in place of the rebellion. Way to take it out of context, LOL. Although I’d just add since you disparaged it, that some people (not all, evidently) are willing to go to hell and back for their friends.

But on point: Han is already in a shady line of work when we are introduced to him, why would he do that if danger (and crossing the Empire) were a deterrent for him?
So as for his winding up on Hoth, being on bad terms with Jabba as well as the Empire doesn’t leave him many career options open aside from the Rebellion, who are also conveniently for Han, close to hand and owe him a great deal of good will (and leeway) after the whole Death Star thing.
The point of this is not that my interpretation is ‘right’ compared to yours (although it does make the most sense to me which I will elucidate on further in the next paragraph) but it’s that what you have asserted as fact from the script is also but an interpretation of events.

imperialscum said:

As for your question, there are two very obvious explanations. First, not paying Jabba immediately as promised (especially after given a second chance), makes it a big chance he might not actually get out of his palace alive (despite bringing the money). He kinda made a fool of Jabba with his machinations and gangsters value their reputation.

Now why I think my interpretation makes the most sense I think is rather poignant in light of your responses to Leia and Han’s interaction. Believe it or not I have considered this interpretation already. The problems for me, assuming that Han is a Rebel, are thus:
(A) If Han and Leia’s fighting over his not returning (which they both acknowledge in the script) was because they both thought that Jabba was such a danger to return to and pay off, why would Han even go and do it? Surely he’d be safer just staying with the Rebels full time against the odd bounty hunter, instead of going into the Lion’s Den, so-to-speak. The illogic in that is evident.
(B) It also refers to my earlier point about why some other Alliance members (like even Leia herself, if she’s so worried for specifically Han’s safety) aren’t accompanying him for back-up or to even help negotiate his settlement of Jabba, if Jabba’s retribution is why they think he wouldn’t return.

imperialscum said:

Secondly, he could simply try to exploit the situation to probe Leia’s emotions for him.

Although would you kindly please explain this further? I’m not sure what you mean by it. That Han is pretending to go pay off Jabba to exploit Leia’s feelings for him? That he is going to pay off Jabba, but is pretending that it’s dangerous and/or that he won’t return to exploit her feelings?
I’m reading into you here, so please correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth, but neither of those actions sound either like the Han Solo I know from the films, or acceptable behaviour from a Rebel officer to a superior, whatever their feelings for each other.

To me, Han’s paying off of Jabba is symbolic in ESB’s story as it would allow him the freedom to not have to rely on the Alliance for employment, and his character conflict is over whether or not he’ll return to the Alliance with that freedom, or return to his old way of life. He seeks validation from Leia as a reason to stay, but Leia refuses to expose her feelings to him until she is certain of which man he’ll be.
When actually faced with the possibility of never seeing him again though, Leia confesses her feelings to him, as Han is symbolically sacrificed for his friends sake (and his final gesture of selflessness is to not resist and put the others in jeopardy, as well as to have Chewie protect Leia in his stead).
Thus, exactly what possibilities are open to Han, and more importantly his choices and reactions upon getting a second chance (again, symbolically) are left for ROTJ to explore, which for my money it didn’t.

That just about covers it, as far as the/my issue with Han’s treatment in ROTJ. As another commenter said, all the arguments along this line of thought have been made; to each their own as far as interpretations are concerned, though I’ve yet to be logically swayed from my case. 😃

About Han exploiting situation to probe Leia’s emotions for him… I simply meant that he used the fact that he had to go pay Jabba (no, he didn’t make it up), to see how she will react to the possibility that he might not return.

Anyway arguing over interpretations is pointless. The fact is that ESB script does not (explicitly) explain/explore Han’s decision at the end of ANH.

As for ROTJ in terms of Han and Leia, when it comes to a romance in general the most interesting aspect is everything before the love is professed. After the love is professed the entire thing becomes boring from a dramatic/character point of view. ROTJ was left with very little to work with after ESB. It tried to make a little complication with the Luke but the main potential was already used in ESB.

imperialscum said:

About Han exploiting situation to probe Leia’s emotions for him… I simply meant that he used the fact that he had to go pay Jabba (no, he didn’t make it up), to see how she will react to the possibility that he might not return.

Thanks, that clears your point up. Han was certainly presenting that possibility to her to provoke her (he’s remarkably good at that), I just don’t think it was an entirely idle threat, and that he had his own internal conflict over the decision to stay or not, Leia being a big contributing factor in what decision he finally made. This observation though obviously doesn’t prove Han’s situation as a rebel or not, either way.

imperialscum said:

Anyway arguing over interpretations is pointless. The fact is that ESB script does not (explicitly) explain/explore Han’s decision at the end of ANH.

I agree, so long as we can agree to disagree 😛. We each have our own understanding, and I accept that yours is possible despite my stated areas of disagreement.

imperialscum said:

As for ROTJ in terms of Han and Leia, when it comes to a romance in general the most interesting aspect is everything before the love is professed. After the love is professed the entire thing becomes boring from a dramatic/character point of view. ROTJ was left with very little to work with after ESB. It tried to make a little complication with the Luke but the main potential was already used in ESB.

I actually agree here too. In one respect, ROTJ was written into a corner with regards to Han and Leia as a couple. I certainly don;t think the film needed to push any drama between them etc. but in a movie that is primarily about wrapping up the Skywalker story (and redeeming their legacy), I am still somehwat baffled as to why Han and Leia don’t have more interaction with Luke, particularly in light of Leia being revealed as his sister.
Especially as the film was brought to a crawl with the Ewoks.

Which brings me to my problem with them: they are superfluous in my mind to the story. Obviously they are integral to the plot (in a kinda completely coincidental deus ex machina way) and I know that that point has been hashed out to death already, but I hope my take on the deficiency with the writing brings something fresh, if not new, up.

Now sure the idea of a primitive force being able to rise against tyrannical oppressors is nice, but when you already have the central narrative of the trilogy revolving around a small(er) and ill-equipped rebellion rising against tyrannical oppressors you can see how it’s redundant.
Because I hate providing just criticism without context, allow me to proffer another hypothetical:

• ROTJ’s key theme is that of redemption, so a plot point where instead of luckily finding Ewoks and recruiting them courtesy of coincidentally bringing C-3PO instead a number of Imperials defected would be more thematically consistent, demonstrating the virtue of many people perhaps forced into service by the Empire, and making a statement about better human nature in fitting with Luke’s refusal to turn, the one thing the Emperor was blind to.

I’m not saying this would necessarily be better, but it has greater potential in concert with the themes and story at play, and thus perhaps would have been a more powerful a statement (not to mention better for the film’s pacing) than a trip to Ewok village.

Just to be clear this is separate of the conceptual criticism people have levied at the Ewoks and how that effects the tone of the film, I’d still hold this opinion if they were replaced with Wookies for example (a rather common talking point that has been floated around these boards).

Now have it, anyone and everyone, blast my opinion so I may better see how well it holds up. 😄

I used to think RotJ was my all time favorite. Over time, I came to appreciate Empire Strikes Back more than ever. The way Lucas suddenly wanted Irvin Kershner to step off in favor of a director that would do Lucas’s bidding is pretty low. More toys were necessary over the quality of the story as it goes. It became a point in time for Star Wars where Lucas no longer saw interest in collaboration. It also suffers from steering away his original take on how scenes should move along in a quicker pace. First half really makes it jarring to join with the second half. And even the second half of the film, before the real action picks up, suffers with bad pacing too. Neither of these issues appear in A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. I personally may find A New Hope slightly ‘boring’, but that’s due to what I feel is a slow buildup, which isn’t really a fault and is different from Return of the Jedi’s Frankensteined editing job.
As cool as that Death Star II was, the more I think about it, it’s quite silly. Not because it’s something from A New Hope rehashed, but because the buildup to it isn’t threatening. It’s only used for sniping Rebel cruisers and never on planets. Damn, Star Destroyers could do that with that many of them.

STILL! I actually really do like Return of the Jedi. I have yet to see such a timeless and thrilling space battle. It captures a sense of urgency while keeping the action in focus and it flows nice for the viewer to keep up. Luke and Vader’s last duel is also the most emotional Star Wars duel in the history of Star Wars. Towards the end, Williams swelling piece of music really makes this confrontation impactful again and again.

Well, in my opinion, Jedi has better payoff than TPM. I’ve said this a few times already, but as a kid that grew up with the Prequels too, I honestly could not sit through TPM and enjoy it.