ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 30

imperialscum said:

You haven’t actually answered my main question. Why didn’t ESB already explore Han’s decision to join the rebellion at the end of ANH? Even if he still had any doubts at the time of ESB (which you seem to be the only person to see them), why didn’t ESB directly explore them? ESB was the proper occasion to do either of those things.

I wasn’t aware that I had failed to answer this question, I thought it was pretty darn obvious that Empire did explore that aspect of Han’s character, and that I had pointed that out, particularly with the afore mentioned quotes and examples.

To clear up any doubt, I am under the impression that ESB did show Han’s character riding the line of committing or not and the conflict which results; quite brilliantly too.
Han and Leia’s arguments revolve around whether nor not he should become a rebel leader, their feelings a subtext with in this, and whether Han will commit to their relationship an allegory for his committing to a higher purpose (ergo the rebellion).

imperialscum said:

I guess passing the blame to ROTJ is more convenient? You were picking on ROTJ for not exploring something as trivial and technical as getting some rank, while forgiving ESB for not exploring something as major and character-changing as his decision to join the rebels at the end of ANH.

I was not picking on Han holding the rank of General specifically in ROTJ, I also thought I made this clear, but rather the lack of character development leading to that point. When I watch ESB I always come away seeing Han as conflicted about whether or not to commit, be that to the Rebellion, Leia and even just to paying off Jabba.
As I said to SilverWook:

Benign Viewer said:

For the life of me, I can’t reconcile this story with Han already being a committed member of the Rebel Alliance, post ANH. If you, or anyone can explain it to me, I’ll retract my disappointment with ROTJ over Han’s lacking development and instead transfer that flaw to ESB where you are making the case it is.

And to my mind, ROTJ never took up those threads for Han and demonstrate him coming to make that commitment (and any friction in doing so), which I felt would have been the natural conclusion to his arc.

SilverWook said:

Off screen explanations aside, the amount of time between SW and ESB is a little hazy. The Rebellion has probably been on the run most of that time. (They haven’t been on Hoth long enough to know about Wampas for example.) Whatever missions Has has done for them, hasn’t taken him close enough to Tatooine to drop off the cash.

As I said before, I’m perfectly willing to buy that, it makes sense if the time Frame hasn’t been that long, that paying off Jabba has never been an option for Han yet prior to Hoth, or even that the time just got away from him. These however are only justifications for him not paying off Jabba, and not for him being a committed rebel in ESB in spite of the contradiction in that and how Leia (in particular) reacts to him (among others).

I’ve still yet to see even a probable explanation that resolves this with Han being committed to the Alliance in Empire, and thus justifiably taking the onus for completing his arc off of ROTJ.

The Rebellion offers a sense of family, (there is also safety in numbers) and it’s better than going back to smuggling drugs for a giant slug? 😉

SilverWook said:

The Rebellion offers a sense of family, (there is also safety in numbers) and it’s better than going back to smuggling drugs for a giant slug? 😉

I certainly agree, but this was the very thing Han struggled with through ESB. At the end of which he was frozen in carbonite. This also does not explain why Leia was reacting to Han leaving the way she did (and the way he responded) if he had already accepted being a Rebel in the film.

So while Han certainly comes to that realization, as evidenced by him as a Rebel General ROTJ, the film skips over any scene where he actually acts upon this; the [natural] resolution to his arc in this respect.

The deleted sandstorm scene actually serves this purpose better than nothing (and the comm call of him thanking Luke). If they’d paced the over all film better (such that it didn’t drag in Jabba’s Palace sequence and at the Ewok village) I think it would have made a better addition to the film.
But that’s just my opinion, again.

Here’s another topic to provoke discussion: I personally think the entire Ewok plot line is superfluous to the story (though I have no real problem with the Ewoks themselves; they could have been Wookies and still the issue be the same).
Queue drum roll and my follow-up line of reasoning; I’m about to get a bunch more strongly worded disagreements. 😉

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

You haven’t actually answered my main question. Why didn’t ESB already explore Han’s decision to join the rebellion at the end of ANH? Even if he still had any doubts at the time of ESB (which you seem to be the only person to see them), why didn’t ESB directly explore them? ESB was the proper occasion to do either of those things.

I wasn’t aware that I had failed to answer this question, I thought it was pretty darn obvious that Empire did explore that aspect of Han’s character, and that I had pointed that out, particularly with the afore mentioned quotes and examples.

To clear up any doubt, I am under the impression that ESB did show Han’s character riding the line of committing or not and the conflict which results; quite brilliantly too.
Han and Leia’s arguments revolve around whether nor not he should become a rebel leader, their feelings a subtext with in this, and whether Han will commit to their relationship an allegory for his committing to a higher purpose (ergo the rebellion).

imperialscum said:

I guess passing the blame to ROTJ is more convenient? You were picking on ROTJ for not exploring something as trivial and technical as getting some rank, while forgiving ESB for not exploring something as major and character-changing as his decision to join the rebels at the end of ANH.

I was not picking on Han holding the rank of General specifically in ROTJ, I also thought I made this clear, but rather the lack of character development leading to that point. When I watch ESB I always come away seeing Han as conflicted about whether or not to commit, be that to the Rebellion, Leia and even just to paying off Jabba.

Well I was asking for something that is actually in the script. Not something that you made up with your imagination. Because for me (or someone else), that aspect is completely unexplored by ESB.

Anchorhead said:

Aside from the two of you looking to generate several pages of debate team practice, Han isn’t a terribly deep character because Lucas isn’t a deep thinker or writer. I don’t think he had any idea what to do with him after Star Wars. He’s not even part of his first sequel (Splinter). I’ve never read the second writer’s sequel, so I don’t know what direction Brackett was taking him in, if any.

IIRC, Harrison wasn’t under contract for a sequel at the point in time Splinter of The Mind’s Eye was being considered as the economical “plan b” approach for the next film.

Bingowings said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Shouldn’t Bob Anderson be included in that list?

I did 😄

For shame, I was mistaken! I completely forgot about Anderson continuing to do Vader’s fencing scenes in ROTJ. 😮

imperialscum said:

Well I was asking for something that is actually in the script. Not something that you made up with your imagination. Because for me (or someone else), that aspect is completely unexplored by ESB.

I quoted Leia and Han in ESB twice! What more do you want for “in the script” if that does not count?! 😮

And just to head you off, in that specific paragraph response I was referring to my earlier responses with those very quotations. I’m sorry that I don’t quote my every comment (or the entire thread for that matter) in each reply. I see little point in repeating myself when you can just click back a page and read it all.
Actual quotes I only use for context for a specific reply or rebuttal, to save cluttering up the thread. But that’s just a matter of etiquette I’ve learnt in using such forums as these.

SilverWook said:

IIRC, Harrison wasn’t under contract for a sequel at the point in time Splinter of The Mind’s Eye was being considered as the economical “plan b” approach for the next film.

That is what’s said of it in The Secret History of Star Wars. It’s certainly what I think happened. SO I’m pretty sure you’re right SilverWook.

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

Well I was asking for something that is actually in the script. Not something that you made up with your imagination. Because for me (or someone else), that aspect is completely unexplored by ESB.

I quoted Leia and Han in ESB twice! What more do you want for “in the script” if that does not count?! 😮

And just to head you off, in that specific paragraph response I was referring to my earlier responses with those very quotations. I’m sorry that I don’t quote my every comment (or the entire thread for that matter) in each reply. I see little point in repeating myself when you can just click back a page and read it all.
Actual quotes I only use for context for a specific reply or rebuttal, to save cluttering up the thread. But that’s just a matter of etiquette I’ve learnt in using such forums as these.

I guess you refer to:
“I thought you’d decided to stay”
“Well that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell changed my mind”

These two lines do absolutely nothing to explore why he decided to join them at the end of ANH (my main point of the question).

And it does not imply he was in any way conflicted about committing either. It simply means he had to go pay Jabba or “he is a dead man” as he himself clearly explains the reason. Even if for some strange reason you ignore the clear reason given by Solo and still think it was because he was conflicted about committing, then where does the script explain/explore his actual reasons for “conflict”?

generalfrevious said:

Star Wars and Empire have fans; Jedi only has defenders. And when a film has defenders and not fans, that is never a good sign.

I refer you to the title of the thread in which you are making that sweeping statement 😉

generalfrevious said:

Well if a franchise peaks after only three years and one sequel, then it isn’t really a good franchise now is it? It’s in the same gutter as Sonic the Hedgehog or The Matrix.

Why are you getting upset by such a trivial thing, which is entirely based on even more trivial thing such as your opinion? Just stay clam and wait for the global warming to destroy Earth.

generalfrevious said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

generalfrevious said:

Star Wars and Empire have fans; Jedi only has defenders. And when a film has defenders and not fans, that is never a good sign.

I refer you to the title of the thread in which you are making that sweeping statement 😉

Well if a franchise peaks after only three years and one sequel, then it isn’t really a good franchise now is it? It’s in the same gutter as Sonic the Hedgehog or The Matrix.

See other equally worthless movie series like: The Godfather and Star Trek

imperialscum said:

Benign Viewer said:

In ROTJ, Han is bland.

No he is not.

How many posts are left until we get to which Star Wars characters could beat up which other Star Wars characters, or did we already get there?

imperialscum said:

I guess you refer to:
“I thought you’d decided to stay”
“Well that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell changed my mind”

I was referring not just to those two lines, but my two quotes; I also quoted the scene between Leia and Han in Bespin.

imperialscum said:

These two lines do absolutely nothing to explore why he decided to join them at the end of ANH (my main point of the question).

Is that what we’re debating now? I was under the impression that my point was that Han didn’t decide to join the Rebels after ANH. Why would I go looking for evidence that I didn’t take away from the movies to counter my own opinion?

But Just to be clear (again): at the end of ANH Han came back for Luke (and Leia) who he’d become friends with over the course of their adventure. That was established pretty well in the movie, I thought. My one assumption, to connect the dots between ANH and Han’s lack of commitment to the Rebellion full time in ESB is that he’s hanging around for his friends and the steady work the Alliance gives him, while their constant evading of the Empire has prevented Han from being close enough to Tattooine to go pay off Jabba.

To use an analogy, he’s hanging around with his friends and goes to some of the same parties they do, but hasn’t joined their club(/fraternity).

imperialscum said:

And it does not imply he was in any way conflicted about committing either. It simply means he had to go pay Jabba or “he is a dead man” as he himself clearly explains the reason. Even if for some strange reason you ignore the clear reason given by Solo and still think it was because he was conflicted about committing, then where does the script explain/explore his actual reasons for “conflict”?

First, also see the above reference to the Bespin scene.
Secondly, as for how this explores his ‘reasons for conflict’; Han is established as a cynical and self-serving character. The referred to run in with the Bounty Hunter on Ord Mantell demonstrates that he is selfishly worried about his own hide, while also being attached to Luke and Leia.
Right there is conflict.

Now you can read more deeply into this through the language of cinema, like the juxtaposition of his character (the oft selfish scoundrel) and Lando’s (who is a ‘responsible’ leader of Cloud City) for example, but the most explicitly stated basis is portrayed through his relationship with Leia, and friendship with Luke, vs his own self-interests.

All this aside though, no one I’ve asked yet has explained how Han is simultaneously a committed Rebel already in Empire and how Leia is so concerned about him leaving and not coming back (and why Han doesn’t assert the opposite when challenged). Please, reconcile those two things for me in Empire, and as I said before, I’ll retract my criticism of ROTJ’s treatment of Han’s character (and confer it on ESB).

CatBus said:

How many posts are left until we get to which Star Wars characters could beat up which other Star Wars characters, or did we already get there?

Boba Fett beats everyone. Have you not played Battlefront 3? 😉

imperialscum said:

Why are you getting upset by such a trivial thing, which is entirely based on even more trivial thing such as your opinion? Just stay clam and wait for the global warming to destroy Earth.

It won’t be much longer, what with all the hot heads in this thread. Me particularly. 😛

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

I guess you refer to:
“I thought you’d decided to stay”
“Well that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell changed my mind”

I was referring not to those two lines, but my two quotes; I also quoted the scene between Leia and Han in Bespin.

imperialscum said:

These two lines do absolutely nothing to explore why he decided to join them at the end of ANH (my main point of the question).

Is that what we’re debating now? I was under the impression that my point was that Han didn’t decide to join the Rebels after ANH. Why would I go looking for evidence that I didn’t take away from the movies to counter my own opinion?

But Just to be clear (again): at the end of ANH Han came back for Luke (and Leia) who he’d become friends with over the course of their adventure. That was established pretty well in the movie, I thought. My one assumption, to connect the dots between ANH and Han’s lack of commitment to the Rebellion full time in ESB is that he’s hanging around for his friends and the steady work the Alliance gives him, while their constant evading of the Empire has prevented Han from being close enough to Tattooine to go pay off Jabba.

To use an analogy, he’s hanging around with his friends and goes to some of the same parties they do, but hasn’t joined their club(/fraternity).

imperialscum said:

And it does not imply he was in any way conflicted about committing either. It simply means he had to go pay Jabba or “he is a dead man” as he himself clearly explains the reason. Even if for some strange reason you ignore the clear reason given by Solo and still think it was because he was conflicted about committing, then where does the script explain/explore his actual reasons for “conflict”?

First, also see the above reference to the Bespin scene.
Secondly, as for how this explores his ‘reasons for conflict’; Han is established as a cynical and self-serving character. The referred to run in with the Bounty Hunter on Ord Mantell demonstrates that he is selfishly worried about his own hide, while also being attached to Luke and Leia.
Right there is conflict.

Now you can read more deeply into this through the language of cinema, like the juxtaposition of his character (the oft selfish scoundrel) and Lando’s (who is a ‘responsible’ leader of Cloud City) for example, but the most explicitly stated basis is portrayed through his relationship with Leia, and friendship with Luke, vs his own self-interests.

All this aside though, no one I’ve asked yet has explained how Han is simultaneously a committed Rebel already in Empire and how Leia is so concerned about him leaving and not coming back (and why Han doesn’t assert the opposite when challenged). Please, reconcile those two things for me in Empire, and as I said before, I’ll retract my criticism of ROTJ’s treatment of Han’s character (and confer it on ESB).

Well as I said, your whole argument is based on things you made up yourself (your “impression” as you call it) that go against what is actually in the script/film. He joined the rebels. That is crystal clear whether you want to accept it or not. One simply don’t hang up with rebels on an ice planet performing patrols for fun. Hanging around with rebels is not like being in a social club. You don’t simply associate yourself with people who are being perceived by the Empire as worst-than-criminals just to hang around with “friends”.

As for your question, there are two very obvious explanations. First, not paying Jabba immediately as promised (especially after given a second chance), makes it a big chance he might not actually get out of his palace alive (despite bringing the money). He kinda made a fool of Jabba with his machinations and gangsters value their reputation. Secondly, he could simply try to exploit the situation to probe Leia’s emotions for him.

imperialscum said:

One simply don’t hang up with rebels on an ice planet performing patrols for fun. Hanging around with rebels is not like being in a social club. You don’t simply associate yourself with people who are being perceived by the Empire as worst-than-criminals just to hang around with “friends”.

Where is that stated in the script? Isn’t this also just an interpretation based on your impression? Or is your impression above everyone else’s?