Censorship of the original films

Author: DanielB
Date: 24-Nov-2004, 6:46 PM

Author: DanielB
Time: 24-Nov-2004 6:46 PM
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
For all your talk of "censorship", I can't get over how much you are trying to censor my version.

A Jehovah Witness would say "I can't get over how much you are trying to censor our Bible".

"I can't get over how much you are trying to censor my version of the Noddy books."

"I can't get over how much you are trying to censor our version of The Sound of Music."

"I can't get over how much you are trying to control our Region Protection Control."

"I can't get over how much you are trying to limit our control of the media."

In answer to you calling my posts "trolling" and threatening to get Jay onto me, let me quote this from mverta's original posting:Originally posted by: Jay
I'm going to let this post stand for now, but it's crossing the line a bit. Why?

The 2004 editions are a completely new product. You can buy them in the store.

I thought this forum was about preservation? So does Jay. The difference between Lucas and Mverta, MeBeJedi and Zion isn't much. They all want new fresh digital effects. They all want to do it their way. The only real difference that I can see is that the end product will look different from each one.

Why don't I want all-new digital effects? Why am I happy with the imperfect originals?

Because that is how they were made. I don't want to re-paint other's work. I don't want to be given re-painted or edited work. I want to enjoy their original art. Movies, books, music, paintings - are all art. Most artists go through different artistic periods - that is if they continue to produce art. This is the case with Picasso, it is too the case with Lucas. If he had made the prequels at the time the originals were made they'd have been very different. Letting modern-day Lucas edit classic-day Lucas' work with new material is the problem, it is why we don't have the originals currently available in a home-video format.

This site was made, as far as I know, to say to Lucas "we want to see and enjoy your original, unaltered work". Lucas has seen this site. And he's decided that he wants to do it his way. He might look at these message boards and discover people don't really want to enjoy his work anyway. They all want to do it their own individual ways, separate to his original ways or his current ways.

Well, I for one do not want to see it YOUR way MeBeJedi. And I don't want to see it YOUR way either Zion. And I don't want to see it YOUR way Mverta. And if you're going to make your own version with fresh digital effects Laserman, well then I don't want to see it your way either.

In fact I don't want to see it Jay's way, I don't want to see it Spider's way, I don't want to see it Rikter's way, I don't want to see it Dr_Gonzo's way - and I don't want to see it My way either.

Would the man who made Star Wars please stand up? Please stand up.

Author: DanielB
Time: 24-Nov-2004 6:55 PM
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Reply to MeBeJedi:

Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
First of all, "capitalistic censorship"?!? I was going to put these on MySpleen, you moron. I'm willing to forget you called me that, despite the fact that I did post a warning explicitly stating that that the post might rattle you up.

Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Secondly, you are not going to change my mind or transfer in any way, shape or form. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your post.

That is what Lucas would say.Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
What's the point, since I'm going to make my transfer MY way. If YOU don't like it, too bad, BUT DON'T COME IN HERE BITCHING AND WHINING BECAUSE YOU AREN'T GETTING THE VERSION YOU WANT!

That is what Lucas would say.

Author: DanielB
Time: 24-Nov-2004 6:55 PM
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Author: Hal 9000
Time: 24-Nov-2004 7:10 PM
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Dude, there are already plenty of various hardcore O-OT DVD releases around here.
I don't see anything wrong with those who want to, releasing their own versions that they modify.

My stance on revising fan edits.

Author: DanielB
Time: 24-Nov-2004 7:17 PM
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A Jehovah Witness might say "you can get uncensord Bibles, what do you care if ours is censored?". If they even realize the watchtower censors it.

Author: Tikigod
Time: 24-Nov-2004 8:01 PM
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So if I download MeBeJedi's or Zion's versions does that mean I can't celebrate my birthday anymore?

Or do I have to go around door to door peddling the glories of five frames of lightsaber fixes?

Can't we just all agree that MeBe and Zion and whoever else are putting the work into their versions so they can do whatever they see fit to those versions?

Can't we then also agree that if somone would want a purely unaltred laserdisc version then there are already a few straight LD transfers available?

I really don't see what the big deal is. It's not as though Zion or MeBe are running around destroying these other versions. Also, your comparison to works of art such as Picasso paintings is also out of proportion. Even if you disagree with what they're doing, MeBeJedi and Zion aren't "destroying" original one-of-a-kind versions, they're "destroying" prints of them. They haven't broken into the AFI vaults and burned the original Star Wars negatives. They aren't breaking into people's homes and smashing original trilogy laserdiscs. They're putting time and effort into making transfers for themselves, and then out of the kindness of their hearts, letting us have them for free.

So, seriously, I know I'm new here and have an inferior post count to you, but you should probably calm down and get some perspective on what you're so worked up about.

Or, you know...don't.

*shrug*

Author: Rikter
Time: 24-Nov-2004 8:27 PM
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The difference between Lucas and Mverta, MeBeJedi and Zion isn't much. They all want new fresh digital effects

Okay - this statement needs to be addressed.

Mverta - is said to be adding NEW colors and has even added new special effects like the Starscape and such.

- I agree with you DanielB - THIS IS NOT a Preservation BUT a SPECIAL EDITION regardless of what Mverta says he's added to the film by adding these new colors on the Tantive and creating an ALL NEW starscape.

MeBeJedi - is actually only fixing MINOR things like the lightsaber errors, fixing colors and removing dust and hair marks.

- I don't think that he's once mentioned that he is adding any "new effects" or even RECREATING scenes so this is as CLOSE as me might get to a restoration.

Laserman - ????

- I really have not been keeping up with this set SO I HAVE NO IDEA what's going on with this set. (that and you did not mention it so maybe it's just a transfer?)

Zion - ????

- I've also not been keeping up with this set as I loaned him my Faces STAR WARS laserdisc to him to help with his transfer - I figure once he's done I'll get my LD back and his transfer so I was kinda hoping that it will be a surprise

Daniel - LET them play with the films if they wish (I think that's why it's called "The MeBeJedi set" and the "Zion Project") BUT if it really really upsets or angers you; then you should maybe consider NOT reading their threads, responding in their threads or maybe consider leaving the forum. (this is the internet why let it make you mad??) - IF it really means that much you can also start your own forums.

AND to everyone that seems to have some static with Daniel - JUST IGNORE HIM please stop feeding his anger by responding to his posts (and you know who you are

)

The point here is....

WE already have some real nice versions of the OT preserved in these sets - "The Dr. Gonzo", "The Rowman/TR47", "The ISOMIX", "The Farsight" and at least 3 different Asian bootleg sets. ALL of these sets are copies of the ORIGINAL, UNALTERED, NON-SPECIAL EDITIONS form the Laserdiscs - all on DVD right now. Really HOW many more do we need? (I'm running out of harddrives!)

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

Author: Tikigod
Time: 24-Nov-2004 8:44 PM
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Originally posted by: Rikter

Mverta - is said to be adding NEW colors and has even added new special effects like the Starscape and such.

- I agree with you DanielB - THIS IS NOT a Preservation BUT a SPECIAL EDITION regardless of what Mverta says he's added to the film by adding these new colors on the Tantive and creating an ALL NEW starscape.

I think as far as the colors and starfield goes, he's restoring the color balance on the Tantive's red markings and starfields that were present in the laserdiscs but changed for the 2004 DVDs. But other things Mverta is doing (such as re-rotoscoping the lightsabers during the training remote sequence and erasing matte lines during the tractor beam sequence) would definately make his version a different "special edition."

Author: Zion
Time: 24-Nov-2004 8:56 PM
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Originally posted by: DanielB
Well, I for one do not want to see it YOUR way MeBeJedi. And I don't want to see it YOUR way either Zion. And I don't want to see it YOUR way Mverta. And if you're going to make your own version with fresh digital effects Laserman, well then I don't want to see it your way either.

In fact I don't want to see it Jay's way, I don't want to see it Spider's way, I don't want to see it Rikter's way, I don't want to see it Dr_Gonzo's way - and I don't want to see it My way either.

Disregarding the fact that that doesn't make any sense, I suggest you invest in your own LD player if you're not willing to appreciate the work others have done FOR THEMSELVES and happily distributed FREELY to anyone interested.

You make a valid point Daniel. You want the unedited original Star Wars Trilogy in a DVD format, right? Well the good news for you is that it's already available. Go download a classic transfer of it by TR47, Dr. Gonzo, or ISOMIX. But that's not the only thing you want, is it? You want the rest of us major transferers to see things your way. You want us to suddenly open our eyes and say "hey, that Daniel guy is right! I don't want to be a selfish corporate censor anymore! I better stop this restoration nonsense and bow to the wishes of other people." You want us to forget our own personal goals - the very thing that drives us to do these transfers in the first place.

I am mostly like you. I want the original versions preserved so that I can enjoy them in a digital format. What I don't understand is what exactly you're trying to accomplish. Let's take a look at your own reasoning for a second:
"Episode IV: A New Hope" is not a MAJOR concern for two main reasons. The first is that it was released theatrically in that form before the entire trilogy was completed, and the second is that Lucas did honestly intended it that way from the beginning.

You know what? Lucas did honestly intend for the lightsaber shots to look the way they do in the Special Edition from the beginning. But when Fox tells you you don't have time to finish your effects shots and you're way over budget, things like this don't get fixed.

As much as you may not like what we are doing, it's not like we're going to edit the dance number into Jedi or make Greedo shoot first. All MeBe and I are going to do is fix a couple of those saber shots in ANH, which were not intended to look the way they do. The one thing you are not seeing Daniel is that we aren't doing these transfers for you. We aren't doing them for other people. We're doing them for ourselves first and foremost. If you can't find it in your heart to download my DVD's for FREE and enjoy the time and money I put into them because I fixed a couple of poor lightsaber shots, then more power to you.

Just don't cry about it because I don't see things your way.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

Author: Darth Balls
Time: 24-Nov-2004 9:03 PM
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The original films shouldnt be changed, but should the laserdiscs be restored is the real question.

Is whats on the laserdisc what you all saw in the theaters in 1977, 80 and 83?

Are you preserving the laserdiscs or the films?

Since I think your preserving the films then some changes have to be made right?

Author: consumer_x
Time: 24-Nov-2004 10:19 PM
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Hello

Firstly, I am not quite sure what the beef is with Jehovah's Witnesses, given that every bible in existence has been edited to push whatever version a particular "Christian" cult wished to push, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, Southern Baptist or Latter Day Saints.

Secondly, the use of the word "censorship" I think is inappropriate. "Censorship" requires a powerful person or body (i.e. governmental) to deny a film, book, or art piece publication. What is going on here with regards to the OT versions are "edits". No person here has the power to say "I hearby declare that this is the only version you will ever see. If you attempt to acquire or view any other version you shall be fined and/or imprisoned and/or stoned to death."

It surely is semantics, but I feel that the inappropriate use of the term "censorship" dilutes the harsh nature of that which is legitimate censorship.

Just my thoughts.

Author: Molly
Time: 24-Nov-2004 10:23 PM
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Was ROTJ also altered between 1983 and 1993, as I know ANH was and I think ESB was?

Moll.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 24-Nov-2004 10:57 PM
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"I'm willing to forget you called me that, despite the fact that I did post a warning explicitly stating that that the post might rattle you up."

What rattled me up was the sheer audacity of you to presume this project, or any of the changes in it, was in any way motivated by greed. But hey, make up whatever you want to paint me as the Darth Vader of LD transfers. LOL! I'm sure everyone else sees right through you.

"That is what Lucas would say."

LOL. So someone who doesn't do it your way is lumped in with Lucas?

"They all want to do it their way."

I don't hear you complaining about Lucas having this attitude when he first made the OT. Perhaps, then, it's not always a bad thing?

And I'm guessing it's the fear of putting yourself in this very category that's preventing you from making your own version?

Oh, and still waiting for someone in this thread to support your stance. Curious...

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Rikter
Time: 24-Nov-2004 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by: consumer_x
Hello

Firstly, I am not quite sure what the beef is with Jehovah's Witnesses, given that every bible in existence has been edited to push whatever version a particular "Christian" cult wished to push, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, Southern Baptist or Latter Day Saints.

Secondly, the use of the word "censorship" I think is inappropriate. "Censorship" requires a powerful person or body (i.e. governmental) to deny a film, book, or art piece publication. What is going on here with regards to the OT versions are "edits". No person here has the power to say "I hearby declare that this is the only version you will ever see. If you attempt to acquire or view any other version you shall be fined and/or imprisoned and/or stoned to death."

It surely is semantics, but I feel that the inappropriate use of the term "censorship" dilutes the harsh nature of that which is legitimate censorship.

Just my thoughts.

DOPE!!!

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

Author: Darth Simon
Time: 24-Nov-2004 11:42 PM
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I just wrote a really long post, arguably too long, and then when i posted it i got a not available message

Basically i agreed with consumer_x on censorship and offered some definitions.

then went in to say how the changes being made on the version under discussion arent changing the movie and basically the movie has seenmore changes, of greater significance from its theatrical release to the 95 faces edition (the later of which is still considered the O-OT by most people i believe) that anything that they are doing is so minor that its insignificant.

-Darth Simon

ps. I think this shorter version sum up will actually be more readable and therefore get most, if not all, of my points across just as well if not better. amazing how that works

*edited because i cant spell

Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 25-Nov-2004 12:41 AM
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"tha[n] anything that they are doing is so minor that its insignificant."

Agreed. And just to point out to any people not aware of the infamous "changes", here they are again. (you have to watch the MPEG very closely to catch them, they're that good.

)

http://www.aptirrelevance.com/~original/lightsaber1.jpg

http://www.aptirrelevance.com/~original/lightsaber2.jpg

http://www.aptirrelevance.com/~original/lightsaber3.jpg

http://www.aptirrelevance.com/~original/lightsaber4.jpg

http://www.aptirrelevance.com/~original/lightsaber5.jpg

And a small clarification..."They all want new fresh digital effects."

Nothing in those scenes is "fresh" or "new". I took existing lightsaber effects and copy\pasted them where the effect was not correct. Speaking of fixing bad effects...

http://www.aptirrelevance.com/~original/glitch03.jpg

I sure didn't hear anyone complain about this fix. Curious...

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: skeg64
Time: 25-Nov-2004 3:19 AM
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Well I am also against these changes. But I think DanielB doesn't make a very good argument for it. I don't see the relevance of those analogies he uses. And I wouldn't call it censorship either.
In case anyone is interested, here is the argument I would propose:

- I am a supporter of film history
- I would like to see the films preserved as products of their time, the seventies and eighties
- Part of the enjoyment is knowing it was all done 30 years ago
- There is another level of enjoyment when you relive your first viewing of the films, which is only possible if you know they are the same
- I like the original films despite their flaws, as did millions of people when they were released

Lastly, a point for Zion and MBJ. We all know an artist is never satisfied with any work. I bet that when you actually sit down to watch your creations you will notice more things that you wished you fixed. You will probably never be happy with them. However, if it were a straight conversion you could love watching them knowing that they are preserved as they were originally filmed.

Author: tellan
Time: 25-Nov-2004 5:06 AM
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personally I'm with mebe on this.

anything that fixes print damage must surely be considered a good thing. if we had an original print in pristine condition, then it wouldn't have the damage evident on the LD transfers that we have, I mean things like emulsion blobs, spots, tears, scratches.

a lot of what Mebejedi is doing is fixing this print damage and I can't see how anyone can say that this is wrong. re-rotoscoping botched lightsaber stuff again must surely fall into the same category. it's fixing the film.

he's not adding revisionist scenes like lucas,
he's not adding out of place CGI
he's not extended scenes and changed music tempo to make it fit.

he's taking the original movie and repairing it.

you didn't see people complaining when Ben Hur got 'restored' and put on DVD. same goes for Lawrence of Arabia. those were both films that were recomposited digitally, color corrected, had print damage repaired and were cleaned to give as nice a presentation as possible.

you didn't see anyone shouting from the rooftops that they weren't the original versions of the film. what Mebejedi is doing is the same. he's repairing visible damage, colour correcting, sharpening to get best possible picture quality and fixing a few dodgy effects that have been flaws since the beginning which would never have been missed if Fox hadn't rushed lucas at the end of production.

as regards Mverta and his legacy edition I think kudos to someone who's putting in such work to repair the botched 2004 DVD.

lets take the changes mentioned, the red on the tantive and the opening crawl starfield.

the red on the tantive was color correction.
he re-rotoscoped the bolts on the opening corvette star destroyer dogfight because the digital work has erased the glows around the bolts
he redid the starfield because you could hardly see it. the sharpening routines had obscured it from view.

all of that by any film restorers yardstick would be classed as restoration to the original print. none of what he has done thus far has been revisionist. he has not deviated from the original film apart from keeping the new FOX studio logo

so fair play to them. I did think that danielb was fairly moderate but this thread has just convinced me otherwise and that he better either pony up and do his own set and show us how it should be done, be quiet on the relevant threads or download TR47's or Gonzo's sets if he wants the unsullied originals.

When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg

Author: DanielB
Time: 25-Nov-2004 5:35 AM
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So tellan, obviously ife I control a Picasso I can:

Fix the colours, after all picasso would have used a more vibrant red, if it was on his pallet.

Fix the imperfections that have been bothering me.

...More of MY paint on Picasso's paiting...

And then distribute that altered work, correct?

Skeg, that is basically my argument. Film history - I'm trying to say - is like any other artistic history - like paint. And no, censorship is not stoping something from being seen, but rather controlling what is being seen. You can ban something - that isn't strickly speaking censorship. But if you say "yes, you can show this so long as it's like THIS" - that is censorship.

Author: tellan
Time: 25-Nov-2004 5:48 AM
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if a painting is so badly damaged it needs restoring, then yes, you may have to do those things to bring it back to where it originally was.

that's the point. restoring back to original state

you argument of

Fix the colours, after all picasso would have used a more vibrant red, if it was on his pallet.

doesn't hold water. that's not what people are doing. the DE LD is the best example of this.

compare the color values of this against, a mid 80's VHS of the film, the 93 THX VHS release of the film, the 97 SE VHS release of the film.

the SE is oversaturated, no one ever denied it wasn't.

however, the DE LD, which I, amongst others has used as my capture source, is tremendously bleached and faded in comparison to the earlier VHS releases. so which is correct? which commercial release of the film has the best color?

you don't know, I don't know. we never will know because the original film deteriorated to such an extent we can't see the original movie film strip and see for ourselves. all we can do as videophiles is color correct our capture as best we can using the equipment we have and logically apply algorithims to arrive at a finished product.

as always, we must use things we know to be white and pure red as guidelines for the rest. this is subjective but there is nothing we can do about that. we aren't intentionally altering things, we are trying to get the color values back to where we 'think' those values should be.

it's not revisionist, hell by that guideline you've stated, then all of the restorations everyone has ever done to Star wars and released on DVD-R for people to enjoy are null and void altered revisionist editions, because the color isn't right.

When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

Author: DanielB
Time: 25-Nov-2004 5:59 AM
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Thanks Zion for discussing this civilly. However some points remain, and I shall get to them shortly. The first thing I will do is restate the argument of changes from theatrical to 1993.

Firstly, all were made from original material. None of the material was digitally tampered with. The one exception to this is the title crawl on ANH which was replaced with something new. However since it was replaced BEFORE the entire trilogy was complete and shown theatrically I'm willing to forgive this.

Zion, here it is. If you're saying I can't ask you to release your restoration unaltered - then it is hypercritical of you to ask Lucas to do so. I don't care what you say. If Lucas owned a Picasso (yes, I'm going to keep using Picasso) and refused to release prints of it - how do you think the art community would react to you and MebeJedi editing your prints of the painting and then distributing it? What you are saying is equivalent to "it always bothered me that Picasso only half drew the guy on the left, and that in the entire image he's the only one where Picasso didn't paint neatly into the lines - so that's all I fixed"?

Please see sense.

Author: Rikter
Time: 25-Nov-2004 6:09 AM
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Originally posted by: DanielB
So tellan, obviously ife I control a Picasso I can:

Fix the colours, after all picasso would have used a more vibrant red, if it was on his pallet.

Fix the imperfections that have been bothering me.

...More of MY paint on Picasso's paiting...

And then distribute that altered work, correct?

Yes, you could Daniel ~ If you bought it that painting is yours man, YOU could even do a #1 and a #2 on it THEN IF you wished sell it as a "GG Allen revisionist" piece on eBay!

ANYWAY... How could anyone compare a hack like George Lucas to Pablo Picasso?

(NOW watch me get TONS o' backlash

)

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 25-Nov-2004 8:37 AM
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"then it is hypercritical of you to ask Lucas to do so."

But he's not waiting for Lucas to do so, in case you hadn't noticed. Unlike you, he's doing something constructive about it.

"I don't care what you say."

That is what Lucas would say.

"how do you think the art community would react to you and MebeJedi editing your prints of the painting and then distributing it?"

Let's use the analogy of rhis thread - you are the only one who feels so extreme about this . Even skeg64 isn't being the SW Nazi you are being about this. It's one thing not to like these changes - it's another to attempt to add weight to one's personal feelings by "painting" these attempts as an affront to all SW fans in general (especially when they clearly don't support you in your own thread!)

"Please see sense."

Again, you are the only one in this thread who feels this way. What does that say about your viewpoint? Are all of the rest of us "wrong"?

"Yes, you could Daniel ~ If you bought it that painting is yours man, YOU could even do a #1 and a #2 on it THEN IF you wished sell it as a "GG Allen revisionist" piece on eBay!"

Agreed. There's a difference between "can" and "should". As guilty as I thought OJ Simpson was, I hated the fact that his Heisman trophy was bought and destroyed to make a point. The trophy had nothing to do with the crime, and represented a completely different time in his life.

Nonetheless, it was bought legally, and everyone knew what was going to happen to it. Seems people can do what they want to something they legally own (not that any one of us has the legal right to give away even an unaltered version of these LD's, but curiously Daniel seems to gloss over this obvious point.)

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Molly
Time: 25-Nov-2004 11:26 AM
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I call Godwin

Moll.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 25-Nov-2004 11:46 AM
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LOL

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.