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What Special Edition changes (if any) did people like? — Page 12

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slask said:

 I didn't say everything has to be updated. But many of those changes work well, and if you're not hyper-nostalgic you can notice that.

 Why do you care if anybody notices anything? You've got the movie the way you like it, you can pop it in the player any time you want. What is this compulsion to lecture people like an unwanted Jehovah's Witness on the porch. 

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Baronlando said:

 Why do you care if anybody notices anything? You've got the movie the way you like it, you can pop it in the player any time you want. What is this compulsion to lecture people like an unwanted Jehovah's Witness on the porch. 

 Ohh, I feel so sorry if I'm the only one who doesn't hate the SE in this TC fanboy group...    I think religious definitions would work for you as well.

towne32 said:

Like I said, you are a fan of 1997 effects, which are outdated. Every single effect needs to be made in the current era, or you too are stuck in the past.

If you think there are no 1997 effects in the 2011 versions, I don't think you are familiar enough with these films to hold an intelligent conversation.

I don't think you can read my comments, therefore I'm sick of repeting myself with someone who clearly doesn't (want to) understand.

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Coming to a site called originaltrilogy.com.

Being offended when most people prefer the original trilogy.

Nobody thought that this could happen.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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Frank your Majesty said:

Coming to a site called originaltrilogy.com.

Being offended when most people prefer the original trilogy.

Nobody thought that this could happen.

 This is what the TFN kiddos do in their spare time to feel better about themselves.

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slask said:

fandom's vision is not lazy, it's stuck in time, and that's worse.

 But don't you see? Movies don't change with the times. They can't! You can't just put new stuff on top of a 20-year-old movie and hope people will just roll with it, that's not how it works! (Cleaning up matte lines is an exception, to a degree.)

Ol’ George has the GOUT, I see.

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FrankT said: But don't you see? Movies don't change with the times. They can't! You can't just put new stuff on top of a 20-year-old movie and hope people will just roll with it, that's not how it works! (Cleaning up matte lines is an exception, to a degree.)

 That and lightsaber fixes are really the only 'changes' I can name off hand that I wont object to although I think its a bit degrading to the period. Also when I say lightsaber fixes, I mean when they're done right like Vader and Obi-Wan's duel in ANH (aside from the brief moments where Obi's saber is purple), not Vaders pink saber in ESB or ROTJ.

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Frank your Majesty said:

Coming to a site called originaltrilogy.com.

Being offended when most people prefer the original trilogy.

Nobody thought that this could happen.

 Who's offended? I like original trilogy too, I bought the 2006 limited dvds and I'm proud of that part of the collection...

What "offends" me are nonsense comments like towne32 ones, who's evidently having a conversation with himself, because he didn't understand a thing of what I said.  And he thinks he's funny too...

FrankT said:

But don't you see? Movies don't change with the times. They can't! You can't just put new stuff on top of a 20-year-old movie and hope people will just roll with it, that's not how it works! (Cleaning up matte lines is an exception, to a degree.)

 Blade Runner changed, and guess what: many people prefer the Final Cut over the theatrical.

In cases like these we're not talking about simple upgrades, we're talking about director's cut. Lucas and Scott couldn't achieve what they wanted back when they shot those movies; producers interference, budget limitations, underdeveloped technology, these are some of the reasons.

If you complain about SW SE, you should hate every director's cut done. The principle at the base of the SE is the same.

I'm not defending every single shot Lucas changed, but many of them were conceived that way from the beginning. He just used renewed technology to fix things he couldn't fix originally (but always wanted to).
I can't see why this raises so much hatred towards him, except for personal tastes. It's his movie, he has the right to change it if he feels the need, just like every other director did when he got the chance to create a new cut for his work.

If you want to grumble for serious things, be honest and just say that it wasn't fair to release special editions only; I agree with that, that's Lucas true mistake (while Scott for example got it right, with the 30th anniversary blu-ray).

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That's my only real problem with the SEs- the previous versions of the films are not made available.

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finally!

Some good sense here :)

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Let's not water this down too much though--the Special Editions really are bad.  Now, that's in my opinion, of course, but that opinion is widely shared, especially in these forums.  Yes, it would be a lovely world in which all versions were available for everyone to enjoy, but that wouldn't make them immune to criticism.

I don't hate them because they're revised--there are many revised cuts out there that I hate and many that I love.  I hate the Special Editions because they are worse than the originals (a characteristic they share with other revised cuts I dislike).  In isolation, A New Hope SE is merely middling, Empire SE is still good, and Jedi SE is rather awful.  But they're not in isolation--relative to the original versions of each, they are all without exception worse.  Again, others may feel differently and bully for them I suppose but that's the view from over here.  Then there's the historical preservation angle which is much less forgiving.

Is it fair to judge Empire SE (which is good in isolation) against the original Empire, and downrate it simply because it's across-the-board worse?  I think so.  Most good-but-flawed films you can give a pass, because you're comparing them against a perfect version of the film that doesn't exist.  The SE's don't get that pass because the idealized versions actually exist.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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I feel I'll probably just be repeating myself here 'cause I've pretty much said all this or things to the effect before but here it goes. As most of you probably know I'm an OOT supporter. Does this mean I hate the SE's?? I dont like them but I dont hate them. I respect their existence and why Lucas did them. Thats all though. My problem as with many is that the OOT is no longer properly available. Not just because some like myself are accustomed to those versions but because they are iconic films that are pivotal to the eras they came out of. Same about the SE's. Regardless of what was good or bad about them, the SE's are products of their time. Now of course you got nit picky fans who pick one version of the film and solely want that version available but me I have no objection to both versions being available. At least Lucas' 'vision' is represented while old school fans get the version they want. But it isnt that way sadly. To those who like the SE's thats fine but me it will never be anything more than a 'what if???' version of SW. The originals are the real deal because even though they were in Lucas' mind 'unfinished' they were iconic and technically speaking were 'completed' with the technology that was achievable at the time.

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slask said:

If you want to grumble for serious things, be honest and just say that it wasn't fair to release special editions only

 You've been making these pronouncements ALL YEAR about how everyone else in the world is supposed to speak and react about a movie. Is there any end to this?

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You and towne32 are buddies? just wondering...    samen level of understanding, same fanboy hate..

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slask said:


In cases like these we're not talking about simple upgrades, we're talking about director's cut. Lucas and Scott couldn't achieve what they wanted back when they shot those movies; producers interference, budget limitations, underdeveloped technology, these are some of the reasons.

If you complain about SW SE, you should hate every director's cut done. The principle at the base of the SE is the same.

 The big problem with that though, is that Lucas only direct one of the three. You can't call ESB & ROTJ "directors cuts". Those films were complete how the director wanted them (although Lucas threw out Marquands cut and recut it himself). It's pure bull that the additions were part of Lucas' original vision and that technical limitations at the time stopped him from doing the thing he wanted. You only have to look at most of the additions/ alterations to see that this isn't true

And to say that if you complain about the SE then you should also hate every directors cut is ridiculous. For one the SE's stopped being called that and replaced the originals as the only version.  With directors cuts you usually get the original along with it or available as a separate release. Not so with the OT.  If Lucas had just kept them as special editions and not tried to bury the originals, then you can bet the hatred towards those films wouldn't be half as bad as it is now. You could just ignore them. As it stands now you are either stuck with crappy DVDs of a non-anamorphic laserdisc master or fan made preservations/ recreations . The more Lucas refused to release the originals, restored in HD, the more the hatred towards the SE's grew

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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slask said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Coming to a site called originaltrilogy.com.

Being offended when most people prefer the original trilogy.

Nobody thought that this could happen.

 Who's offended? I like original trilogy too, I bought the 2006 limited dvds and I'm proud of that part of the collection...

What "offends" me are nonsense comments like towne32 ones, who's evidently having a conversation with himself, because he didn't understand a thing of what I said.  And he thinks he's funny too...

Obviously, many people here share Towne's point of view, it's you who starts this fruitless discussion over and over again. We know that you like the SE's, you said it multiple times in this thread, now would you please let others say what they think about them.

The same thing is happening here again and again: A new member posts his opinion on the SE, what they like or what they don't like, then a few regular posters comment on that and as soon as the key word "force ghost" is mentioned, you engage head-first into the debate, saying the same things that you said two months earlier (that didn't made anyone change there mind at that time) and when still noone is persuaded by them this time, you rant about how everyone who doesn't like Anakin as a force ghost is "stuck in time", then everyone tells you how stupid that is, but you won't listen, eventually you stop replying and give up, only for the circle to start again a month or two later.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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I'm definitely not trying to say the SE's are better or anything. I just meant that their existence doesn't bother me. It's fun to look at them once and a while. I'm just bothered that the OOT isn't available alongside them. And the SE's are by far worse than the OOT, but I like some aspects of them and can see how some may prefer them. 

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Yeah, nobody's saying you can't do that. Like Adywan said, if the OOT had been released alongside the SE, only few people would care to point out the flaws of the SEs. Not being able to watch my preferred version is what I don't like about them the most.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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crissrudd4554 said:

I feel I'll probably just be repeating myself here 'cause I've pretty much said all this or things to the effect before but here it goes. As most of you probably know I'm an OOT supporter. Does this mean I hate the SE's?? I dont like them but I dont hate them. I respect their existence and why Lucas did them. Thats all though. My problem as with many is that the OOT is no longer properly available. Not just because some like myself are accustomed to those versions but because they are iconic films that are pivotal to the eras they came out of. Same about the SE's. Regardless of what was good or bad about them, the SE's are products of their time. Now of course you got nit picky fans who pick one version of the film and solely want that version available but me I have no objection to both versions being available. At least Lucas' 'vision' is represented while old school fans get the version they want. But it isnt that way sadly. To those who like the SE's thats fine but me it will never be anything more than a 'what if???' version of SW. The originals are the real deal because even though they were in Lucas' mind 'unfinished' they were iconic and technically speaking were 'completed' with the technology that was achievable at the time.

 Seconded. I'd respect the SEs more if they were presented alongside the originals!

Ol’ George has the GOUT, I see.

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Wazzles said:

I'm definitely not trying to say the SE's are better or anything. I just meant that their existence doesn't bother me. It's fun to look at them once and a while. I'm just bothered that the OOT isn't available alongside them. And the SE's are by far worse than the OOT, but I like some aspects of them and can see how some may prefer them. 

 I agree and have said much of what you say here. The only part I'd debate here is that the SE's are 'worse' than the OOT. Well that sorta goes back to letting nostalgia affect our opinions. To people who grew up on OOT, then yeah the SE's are not good. To those who grew up on SE's, then the originals are probably worse. The reality is no one is every going to have a single mutual opinion on one version of these films and a lot of that has to do with how people are introduced to them. So if future generations are only gonna get the SE's then they'll probably prefer those. Are OOT fans like myself gonna be happy about this?? Of course not and also its misleading. Future or even current generations will watch the original trilogy under the impression its the original versions and represent the state of visual and technical effects of that period when the reality is its been tampered with to include updated effects from 20 years later and onward.

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So when it comes down to it, there is no solution to the problem.

Ol’ George has the GOUT, I see.

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FrankT said:

So when it comes down to it, there is no solution to the problem.

 To put it bluntly yes. Even if OOT fans somehow get their wish of restored versions of the OOT someday, you'll still get angered SE fans who will rain on the parade much like how OOT rain on their parade now.

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I would cheer the SE's if the originals were still available. PLEASE keep making changes, maybe you'll get it right this time! You want to add a post-credits scene that sets up TFA, sure, why not?

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

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@Adywan: Well, I'd say Return of the Jedi is a Lucas movie too. Marquand was not a talented director, and while mr. Kershner was experienced enough to make a movie without any interference or support, it is known that Lucas had to shoot some scenes of SW VI himself and edit the movie.

However, most of the additions in Empire for example show what kind of technology/shots Lucas wanted to use. I'm not judging the result (which by the way to me is fine), I'm saying that his reason is understandable...

And technically it's not correct to say that usually we get original versions alongside director's cuts. Most of the time it's the opposite, or at least it's been this way for decades. Many movies were released for home-video in theatrical cuts, and sometimes, maybe after years, we were lucky to get special editions with a new cut included. Now "combos" are spreading more and more, and we see lots of blu-rays with 2 or 3 versions of the same movie, but it's a recent trend.

"If Lucas had just kept them as special editions and not tried to bury the originals, then you can bet the hatred towards those films wouldn't be half as bad as it is now." Which is precisely what i'm saying...   i'm definitely sure not everyone who watched the SE really thinks they suck. Many just love the older versions too much.

Which is, if you think about it, the same exact situation of the prequels.

@Frank your Majesty: spare me these monologues, please. I'm not in love with your oratory as you are.

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I'm aware of one small sequence Lucas shot for Empire, as documented in the original making of paperback. (I have not read the more recent book yet.) Lucas helping out behind the camera was out of trying to keep the production on schedule, not from any failings of Kershner.

I would imagine there was a similar situation on the Jedi set.

Shooting second unit does not make one the director of a film.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Let's go back to 2002 for a moment. E.T. is rereleased by Steven Spielberg with added effects and scenes to commemorate its 20th anniversary (sound familiar???). As with the SW SE's, it allowed past generations to see it in theatres again while allowing a new generation to see it on screen for the first time. And even more like the SW SE's it was met with criticism by old school fans. Replacing shot guns with walkie talkies was equivalent to Greedo shooting first and CGI E.T. was no more real than CGI Jabba (well maybe not THAT bad). However has anyone noticed something?? Over a decade later we don't bash Spielberg for the enhanced E.T., at least not to the level of Lucas bashing, while Lucas is still criticized for the SE's. Why?? I think I know part of the reason. When E.T. was first issued as a 2 disc DVD set as well as a deluxe DVD set, Spielberg was adamant with Universal that both cuts be included. And unlike what his good buddy Lucas would do in 2006, Spielberg actually included the original cut in restored quality, by 2002 standards at least, and in anamorphic widescreen. Not a cheap 4:3 Laserdisc rip. E.T. is now on BluRay and only includes the original cut. As a purist I'm ok with this but i wouldn't have objected if the 2002 version had been there too. However no one seems to complain about this either. So now you ask what's my point here?? I think the real argument we have established being half of this issue wouldn't exist if the originals had been restored to accompany the DVD/BluRay releases. For the sake of discussion I'm ignoring GOUT. I think true fans know what should be out there and whether a day will come where all fans are satisfied is questionable and probably always will be.