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Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 345

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Even as a kid, I always thought that Vader was higher in rank than any of these "regular humans".

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marioxb said:

Even as a kid, I always thought that Vader was higher in rank than any of these "regular humans".

I think a lot of people feel that when they watch the film as children because Vader is a major character and all these Grand Moffs etc are minor characters but when you examine the text of the first two films it's clear Vader is an instrument of the Emperor, good at what he does but not the Emperor's second in command as he became in the PT.

Lucas became increasing simplistic in writing his characters the more control he got over his fictional universe.

Boba Fett went from being a bounty hunter to a body guard/mini-boss for Jabba just as Jengo and Grievous would for Dooku in the PT. Ironically the cartoons based on those films were less cartoonish in the depth it gives it's characters.

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I recall the old Star Wars Visual Dictionary having a description of Vader and his past which was very different than the prequels, essentially describing him as some maligned and half forgotten holdover from the Imperial past, who nevertheless becomes useful to Tarkin. If I remember correctly Tarkin is the one who takes Vader under his wing, not the Emperor.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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From said book:

"Once regarded as mad human wreckage, with the increasing favor of the Emperor Vader has risen in power and influence to become a much-feared military commander. Grand Moff Tarkin was one of the few who recognized Vader's capabilities in spite of his bizarre appearance and eccentric conduct, and as Tarkin's right-hand man Vader attained a new level of respect among the upper echelons of the Imperial military."

Why the hell has no one treated that!?

I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.

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That part of the visual dictionary always struck me as odd because ESB and ROTJ make it clear that The Emperor turned Anakin to the dark side. Obi-Wan fears loosing Luke to the Emperor the way he lost Vader and Luke says that the Emperor won't turn him like he did his (Luke's) father.

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Exactly it fits Vader pre-1980 but after then the Emperor is more than just Robert Mugabe (unless there is more to him than we know).

The Emperor is the real threat from Ben and Yoda's perspective.

Vader is just their most bitter disappointment.

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Interesting reading on here about Vader. I used to think as a kid that Tarkin was the boss of just the Death star and i saw him and Vader as rivals till Tarkins death, then Vader took over the second DS.

anyways, .. i came to this particular thread with an idea/suggestion for the ROTJ edit. Basically, I love B-Wings but felt they never got the screen glory they deserved (apparently due to their long shape design not being photogenic enough, according to an interview i saw years ago.) 

Anyway Ady, any plans to add in any more B-wing action to the film?

Also, i had an idea, there was some Mon calamari pilot footage that was in the blu ray deleted scenes. How about replacing the existing footage of the human B-wing pilot with a Mon Cal instead? So it adds a bit of species variety to the battle and also shows one as a fighter rather than all the calamari officers and Ackbar on a bridge.  Not sure why they deleted that Mon cal pilot from the film after going through the trouble of making the mask. cool helmet too.

"Away put your weapon, I mean you no harm!"

http://mixta110.deviantart.com/gallery/

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In the close-up of Darth Vader igniting Luke's lightsaber, the belt boxes are on backwards. The green lights should be near the belt buckle.

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Bingowings said:

Boba Fett went from being a bounty hunter to a body guard/mini-boss for Jabba just as Jengo and Grievous would for Dooku in the PT

 Jango and Grievous were always  henchman, from frame one. 

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Fix this goofy scene in RotJ:

When everyone has gotten aboard the hover skiff as they are escaping Jabba’s barge, Lando has fallen off and Han is trying to reach out to him. A shot from the barge destabilizes the skiff and Han is thrown off balance and nearly off the skiff, in one frame clutching the rail with his hands and dangling his legs wildly in the air, and in the next, FREAKING MAGICALLY HOLDING ON BY HIS TOES. Chewbacca, on his stomach, reaches out his arm and grabs Han’s ankles, but the length of time Han’s feet are just gently touching the deck upside-down with NO LEVERAGE OR SUPPORT WHATSOEVER is ridiculous.

Also, it is entirely unclear how Han went from hanging by his hands to being upside down, he would have literally had to pull himself up and then turn around and fall back down again, which there wasn’t even time to do.

Here is a GIF of this absurd scene:

http://i.giphy.com/3o8dpbQc9KaACgiwo0.gif

Anyhow, I realized an easy and simple way to fix this.

In the original shot Han stumbles a lot as he begins to fall, and it takes quite a bit of jostling before his feet finally leave the deck; as this happens, Chewie can clearly be seen already in the act of moving toward Han.

If you waited until the very last frame that Han’s feet were still on deck, then cut to Han falling/dangling upside-down, then cut to Chewbacca completely and firmly grasping Han’s ankles, it would suggest that Han lost his grip on the railing, fell head first (instead of the original feet first), but Chewbacca, having already noticed Han was falling, got there just in time to save him - as opposed to Han CATCHING HIS ENTIRE FALLING 150+ POUND BODY WITH ONLY THE TOES OF HIS BOOTS, and Chewie helping out after the fact.

I wasn’t sure if this thread was the most useful place to post this, but anyway.

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Pretty sure the Blu-ray added a rope around Han’s ankles.

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I see. Still, this might be a better (less invasive) compromise. I mean, was the rope visible on deck beforehand or did it just magically appear? And did they remove Chewbacca and replace him with a rope, or was it Chewbacca plus rope?

Anyway here is the edited scene:

http://i.giphy.com/d2ZgKL99ocR8Nu0M.gif

Requires the viewer to have awareness of a wookie’s strength to be believable, but it at least works noticeably better.

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ROTJ could benefit immensely from a drastic recut. And it’s on that thought, that I offer the following structural suggestions.


STRUCTURAL IDEAS #1 – SPACE BATTLE OPENING

ROTJ’s opening always struck me as the weakest of the original trilogy. It’s incredibly static, and very much like TPM’s opening – a ship docks inside a station, after laborious communications between the pilot and station crew, and then further dialogue goes back and forth (the saving grace being that Vader’s dialogue serves to build anticipation for the Emperor’s reveal). Ultimately, though, it’s nothing we haven’t seen before – it’s terrifically uncinematic, and we learn nothing that we haven’t already gleaned from the opening crawl (except, of course, that the Emperor will be paying a visit). The start of ROTJ just doesn’t move – as opposed to those opening sequences in which a Star Destroyer attacks the Tantive IV, or dispatches numerous probe droids across the galaxy.

So what I propose is this. We overhaul the crawl – which reads like a TV guide synopsis – to propel the narrative from the get-go. I’ve read numerous fan rewrites of ROTJ’s crawl, but I think the draft found on doubleohfive’s blog (https://doubleofive.wordpress.com/rotj-fanedit-wishlist/) is the most appropriate – and very in keeping with the previous crawls. I’ve edited it somewhat, to make the text more economical – I think it reads better:

The Alliance is doomed. Hunted by the Imperial Star Fleet, the rebels have retreated to the rim world of SULLUST to mount a final strike against the tyrannical EMPIRE.

Sensing victory, LORD VADER and his cruel EMPEROR oversee construction of a new battle station – even more powerful than the first dreaded DEATH STAR.

Meanwhile, Luke Skywalker has journeyed to NAL HUTTA to rescue Han Solo from the vile gangster JABBA THE HUTT…

And as an aside, I include “Nal Hutta” only because it’s my greatest wish that Tatooine not feature in this film – ROTJ marks the start of the franchise’s lazy reliance on this planet, and similarly sandy worlds. Along with a more exotically rendered Endor, I think it’d be great if Tatooine could be reimagined as a unique world – a wholly different planet, home to Jabba the Hutt. And while I’m ignorant of the technicalities of achieving such, I imagine that it wouldn’t be impossible – given that this part of the movie largely takes place inside Jabba’s Palace, cutting to the one establishing shot. Redoing the environmental backgrounds for C3PO and R2D2’s trek to the palace gate, along with the barge sequence, would be far more difficult I’d assume. If it were achievable, and with a rewritten crawl, the only other reference to Tatooine that would have to be cut would be “I used to live here, you know…”. The prior line, “There’s nothing to see”, could be kept – and straight after that, you could cut away to a desolate shot of Nal Hutta (or whatever the new planet is), so that the joke plays out.

And final digression…I’m also totally in favour of cutting Boba Fett, for the justifications given by many before me: he’s underutilised in ROTJ, his death is wildly lame, and it makes no sense for his character to remain at Jabba’s after delivering Han. Let Boba remain a unique element of ESB; his final appearance ought to be flying off into the sunset – the conqueror! Now, if Boba were to be removed, I would actually suggest that a reedit of ESB’s conclusion would be merited. Specifically, the dialogue at the end of ESB should be edited along the lines of the 1980 70mm theatrical cut – where Lando promises Leia just that he’ll find Han, and makes no mention of “that bounty hunter” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmbl8tLOfFE). This way, at the end of ESB, not even the slightest expectation would be raised of our heroes facing off with Boba again.

OKAY! Back to my revised opening for ROTJ.

After the crawl, we pan down – and fall upon the final space battle, with the rebels attacking the Death Star II. Specifically, a sequence should be cut together which disproportionately showcases the rebels’ losses – pilots dying, scenes of their ships crashing and of the Death Star II firing on the rebel cruisers, etc. We then cut to the rear shot of the Falcon being engulfed by flames. Finally, we cut to the scene where Leia is injured on Endor – tight on her, so we can’t make out the backdrop or discern the situation fully; a flash fills the frame, and we see Leia hurt. Played over this opening, we hear the Emperor’s words – reverbed, and partially edited: “Your fleet is lost, and your friends…will not survive”. The editing should be frenetic – very much akin to Rey’s vision in TFA, upon touching the lightsaber. Although initially, the sequence should play out conventionally – after the pan down from the crawl – so that the audience believes the opening to be occurring in real time.

After Leia’s “death”, we then cut to…Luke, from the deleted lightsaber construction scene. The opening space battle was a Force premonition, received by Luke. So after the final scene in the opening “montage” – for want of a better word; because it should play as one long, terrible vision – we then cut to (or utilise the premonition effect from ROTS, when Anakin dreams of Padme dying, to dissolve to) Luke’s face, tight; with Vader’s “Luke…Luke…” overlaid. We don’t, however, see Luke ignite his lightsaber – which happens shortly after the close-up on Luke’s face, here. Rather, we hold on Luke – with him presumably mulling over the vision – and then cut straight to Luke reaching out to R2D2, with C3PO in the background. We then cut to C3PO looking out over the ridge, before R2D2 joins him. All of C3PO’s dialogue should be cut, here. After the establishing shot of Luke’s X-Wing and the Falcon in the clearing, we then wipe to C3PO and R2D2 trekking to Jabba’s Palace – and the opening continues from there.

The advantages of this recut are thusly:

1.) The film starts with a much needed bang. We get a taste of the impressive space battle finale – and the surprise twist of this sequence actually being a Force premonition.
2.) The stakes are raised from the get-go. Is this the future? Will the Falcon really be destroyed? Does Leia die? The audience is primed for tragedy – which makes the film’s true denouement a relief. One common complaint is that the film’s ending is too convenient; a bittersweet conclusion is often said to have been preferred, in which a hero or two dies. But by teasing the deaths of our heroes at the start, the ending then becomes subversive – “difficult to see; always in motion is the future”.
3.) A definite gravity is given to certain moments in the film. Han’s inkling that he won’t see the Falcon again; the Emperor’s remarks aboard the Death Star II that he has already “foreseen” the Empire’s victory – is what the audience saw at the start of the film precisely what the Emperor has anticipated, and what Han suspects?

There’s also no real casualty to the reedited opening, either – the scene where Vader visits the Death Star II could easily be moved to some other point in the film, as a break from the happenings in Jabba’s Palace (which can feel very drawn out). The most logical insertion point, to my mind, would be after the reveal of Han in carbonite. Instead of wiping to the droids being assigned their positions of servitude, we would wipe to Vader’s shuttle approach – and at the conclusion of that scene, we then wipe to C3PO (“What could possibly have come over Master Luke? Was it something I did?”). As well as my suspicion that this arrangement of scenes would flow nicely, there’s also a narrative connection which now underlies the scene transition – Han suffered his carbon freeze at the hands of Vader; and so by cutting straight to Vader after the reveal of Jabba’s “favourite decoration”, the looming threat of the Empire is reinforced.

STRUCTURAL IDEAS #2 - LUKE RETURNS TO BEN’S HUT

Another bothersome scene in ROTJ is when Luke confabs with Obi-Wan’s ghost. It’s a visually bland, shot-reverse-shot affair – with Obi-Wan squatting down on a log no less! Very un-ghost like! So one idea to improve this segment – which doubleohfive records on his blog – is to have Luke and Obi-Wan confer in Obi-Wan’s hut, back on Tatooine.

This would immediately lend the exchange gravitas, as it becomes a direct parallel of the conversation between Luke and Obi-Wan in ANH; when Obi-Wan first told Luke about his father. Visually quoting this scene in ROTJ, by having Luke and Obi-Wan’s discussion occur in Obi-Wan’s hut, is particularly fitting. For the conversation once again turns to Luke’s father – the truth about Luke’s father; that initial question, “How did my father die?”, is finally answered in full. “The circle is now complete”.

And with Luke sitting to screen right, and Obi-Wan to screen left, their positions are reversed from ANH. This would communicate that Luke is the wiser, here – and Obi-Wan the novice. Because there truly is light in Vader – even if Obi-Wan can’t see it. Far from banal exposition, then, by switching Dagobah for Obi-Wan’s hut the exchange takes on a whole new subtext. Also, the troubling notion that Obi-Wan’s ghost can interact with material objects (why couldn’t he spectrally manifest to assist Luke in fighting Vader, then?) can be explained away with Obi-Wan having an intimate connection to this dwelling – and so he has limited powers of interaction here; i.e. he can sit down.

I’ve given some thought about where and how this scene should occur in the runtime. After Luke and company escape Nal Hutta (or whatever Tatooine’s replacement becomes, for the opening), Luke informs the Falcon that he’ll meet them back at the fleet; Han tells Luke that he “owes [him] one”. We then cut to an exterior shot of R2 in the X-Wing, bleeping; and we see the translation appear on Luke’s cockpit screen. After that, we should cut to Luke putting on his glove – and responding that “I have a promise to keep; to an old friend”. We see the X-Wing soar leftwards and then, rather than cutting to the Emperor’s arrival, we wipe to the establishing shot of Luke’s X-Wing outside Yoda’s hovel.

Luke and Yoda’s interaction then plays as originally. But when Yoda dies, after his body vanishes, we now cut to the exterior shot of Yoda’s hovel (with the light fading) and hold on this scene until the music concludes. We now wipe to the Emperor’s arrival. After that scene, we wipe to an establishing shot of Luke’s X-Wing outside of Obi-Wan’s hut on Tatooine. But crucially – there is a sandstorm raging! Perhaps assets could be seized from the ROTJ deleted scene for such a phenomenon? Having a sandstorm occurring:

1.) Gives further reason for Luke taking R2 into Obi-Wan’s hut, as opposed to leaving him in the X-Wing. Recall that Luke’s dialogue with R2 is what Obi-Wan’s ghost first seizes on, and so R2 has to be present in the scene.
2.) Symbolises the turmoil raging in Luke, at this point.
3.) Lends environmental variety. If we are to return to Tatooine again in this film – and despite my misgivings about this, we really ought to return to Tatooine if it’s for the sake of this hut scene (and providing we’ve changed the opening locale to Nal Hutta or its variant) – then at least have Tatooine be somehow different. And a sandstorm would be dramatically different!

Technologically achieving this Hut scene would doubtless be difficult. So the easiest way of going about it, to my mind, would be to edit the sequence as follows. After the establishing shot, we cut to Luke kneeling in front of R2 – “I can’t do it, R2. I can’t go on alone”. We hear Obi-Wan’s voice, “Yoda will always be with you”, as Luke stands and looks towards camera – “Obi-Wan!”. We then remove the shot of Obi-Wan walking towards camera – and cut instead to the shot of Obi-Wan standing still and gazing towards Luke (at the 46 minute mark). Obi-Wan’s ghost should, in fact, be made to fade in here – as ghosts are wont to do!

We hold on this image of Obi-Wan for longer than before – so that we can have Luke’s “Why didn’t you tell me?” play over it, along with “You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father”. The initial question was originally asked by Luke as he walked through the Dagobah foliage – which obviously cannot happen here. This footage couldn’t be transplanted into Obi-Wan’s hut, and so its audio must instead play over the image of Obi-Wan’s ghost. Then, the scene could unfold as before; there aren’t any more long walks or bending to miss tree branches – the movements of Luke and Obi-Wan, edited to their bare minimum (Luke kneeling before R2 and then rising; Obi-Wan fading in to a standstill; then both moving back slightly to sit down), could all be feasibly mapped to the interior of Obi-Wan’s hut.

After Luke and Obi-Wan’s conversation in the hut, we wipe to the Rebel fleet as before. And it strikes me that, by having Luke hop from Dagobah to Tatooine, he’s been gone for longer; Luke returning to Tatooine and telling R2 that he “can’t go on alone” also implies, strongly, that he was considering not re-joining the Alliance – and perhaps, Luke was instead thinking of “staying here and not getting involved”. This makes the reunion which Luke enjoys with Leia and Han at the Rebel briefing all the more poignant. Luke’s finally back – the Jedi has returned!


So there you have it. I think that all of the above, combined with an enhanced bunker raid sequence (which utilises the deleted scenes) and an updated space battle finale, would go a long way towards structurally improving the film – and giving ROTJ some much needed heft.

…how feel you?

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Tack said:

From said book:

“Once regarded as mad human wreckage, with the increasing favor of the Emperor Vader has risen in power and influence to become a much-feared military commander. Grand Moff Tarkin was one of the few who recognized Vader’s capabilities in spite of his bizarre appearance and eccentric conduct, and as Tarkin’s right-hand man Vader attained a new level of respect among the upper echelons of the Imperial military.”

Why the hell has no one treated that!?

Neat. I don’t think I ever read that, but it’s completely in line with my own personal canon.

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topdawg193 said:

Finally, we cut to the scene where Leia is injured on Endor – tight on her, so we can’t make out the backdrop or discern the situation fully; a flash fills the frame, and we see Leia hurt.

After Leia’s “death”, we then cut to…Luke, from the deleted lightsaber construction scene.

^ On reflection, it might be inappropriate to include any scene of Leia here - and perhaps best to keep the opening space bound, like the other episodes, for uniformity’s sake. Besides, it may be more powerful to have the sequence conclude with the Falcon apparently burning up. So of course, if this was to be the case, we would segue to Luke’s close-up after the shot of the Falcon - which would become the final image in the opening vision.

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Joshua_Blue said:

Again, a couple more ideas:

  • when R2D2 shoots the lightsaber into the air, and Luke is waiting with his hand in the air for it, this could be shortened just a little bit, so it would seem even more synchronized, a real Jedi move.

Yeah I always thought if the saber could just fall short of Luke in front of him and he uses the Force to pull it in his hand in a clear Jedi move it would have been much better.

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An idea that’s been buzzing around my head:

I’m currently watching ROTJ (and loving it) and I genuinely think eliminating the lazy second Death Star is possible. Not by awkwardly cutting it out of frame, but by re-purposing it. Done in a few easy(ish) steps.

1.) Cut references to the station by name. Fairly straight foward, should be possible with a gental touch.

2.) Introduce the station in the opening crawl as the Empire’s armory. It’s where ships/weapons are built, troops are held etc. Say the rebellion are pushed to the brink but discover the location of this vital stronghold.

3.) Visual enhancements. Not essential, but would be a great touch. If you extended/accentuate the incomplete sections of the structure, you could do a lot to make it a unique location. It’s only partially visible in many shots so they wouldn’t need tweaking, and the wide shots are normally pretty static so they’d be easier to modify.

4.) Finally, tweak dialogue so that any references to the Death Star’s completion are in fact about an upcoming military upgrade. You could potentialy preserve the Rebel’s shock over the station’s firepower as simply something they didn’t expect to encounter.

I’ve gone mad with the potential of this idea, but maybe it’s actually rubbish. I dunno. I thought it’d be worth sharing though.

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henzINNIT said:
I’m currently watching ROTJ (and loving it) and I genuinely think eliminating the lazy second Death Star is possible. Not by awkwardly cutting it out of frame, but by re-purposing it. Done in a few easy(ish) steps.

You might want to check out Spence’s Edit of Return of the Jedi. Not handled exactly like you would, but it does away with the Death Star rather nicely, explaining that the Emperor is instead on a Star Destroyer.

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Bingowings said:

My wish list for Jedi.

  1. Leia remembers Padme…but how? One easy fix could be that when she refers to “images” she produces a locket with a picture of her mother and gives it Luke, something regal that Bail Organa may have given her when she was a little girl. If it fell out while Palpatine was zapping Luke, seeing it and Luke in pain may add a bit more umph to his Return to the light side (just an idea). A variation on the same idea is that Leia gets a strong mental image of Padme when she holds a mysterious pendant that used to belong to her (in ROTS we see Padme with the pendant in her coffin but perhaps she wasn’t buried with it. Now that would have a serious impact on Vader if he saw it). The less labour intensive option would be having the line edited to _“No, just images really, feelings.” It would retcon Leia’s knowledge of her mother to something even more vague without revealing when she died.

That would be perfect. Although Padmé’s death could have been handled better in Revenge of the Sith (e.g., cutting the line, “She has lost the will to live”), I believe that the death of the love interest is an emotional necessity in a tragedy. I thought it was poetic that Padmé died the moment Anakin was reborn as Darth Vader, and Padmé’s funeral was one of the most emotional scenes in the prequel trilogy in my opinion. I would hate for the scene to be cut merely to reconcile the film with Return of the Jedi.

I suppose that the alternative would be to redub the medical droid and hire Ewan Mcgregor and Natalie Portman to film an additional scene in which Obi-Wan tells an emotionally distraught Padmé that the twins must be separated for their own safety. But unless you film an entirely new scene explaining why Padmé abandoned Luke, any attempt to remove Padmé’s death from Revenge of the Sith would only create more problems in my opinion. It would be much easier to simply edit the conversation in Return of the Jedi.

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Going back to the two Death Stars idea for ROTJ if the incomplete clone of the original Death Star was the lure the completed Death Star could resemble Starkiller Base the weapon could be badly damaged and it could jump to hyperspace just as the second Death Star exploded.
That way it could be repaired by the First Order or the Base seen in the next film could be based on it. It would take a long time because the First Order wouldn’t have the same resources as the Empire.
Maybe using the star as a power source is a work around for the reactor being impossible to fix.

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Bingowings said:

  1. Leia remembers Padme…but how? One easy fix could be that when she refers to “images” she produces a locket with a picture of her mother and gives it Luke, something regal that Bail Organa may have given her when she was a little girl.

I really like this.
I’m usually against putting ANYTHING from the PT into the OT, but this really works without you having to have even seen the PT. You’ll know who the lady is via the current conversation.
I think Mark and Carrie look down enough times in the scene to make the locket inserts work.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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ray_afraid said:

Bingowings said:

  1. Leia remembers Padme…but how? One easy fix could be that when she refers to “images” she produces a locket with a picture of her mother and gives it Luke, something regal that Bail Organa may have given her when she was a little girl.

I really like this.
I’m usually against putting ANYTHING from the PT into the OT, but this really works without you having to have even seen the PT. You’ll know who the lady is via the current conversation.
I think Mark and Carrie look down enough times in the scene to make the locket inserts work.

Just spitballing here but maybe instead of a locket it could be the necklace thing anakin gave padme?