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Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 150

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 (Edited)

unamochilla2 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

unamochilla2 said:

rpvee said:

So is "Ren" the new "Sith"?  I hope that wasn't to avoid using the term Sith, since the name did exist long before the prequels.

Hm...

Kylo Ren isn't his real name, but rather a title. He also isn’t a Sith. He’s a member of an organization known as “The Knights Of Ren" and he is allied with the First Order.  Also, his lightsaber isn't a relic - it is something he put together himself.

While the term "Sith" did exist before the PT, I don't believe it was formally used in the OT.  It seems like TFA is going back to the roots of the series.

Although the word Sith was never specifically used in the actual moved, it was a part of the official canon back when they were making the movies.
    "Two metres tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen - a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the rebel ship."
- p. 11 of the SW novelization from 1976.      
    "Towering above them in his black cloak and concealing black headgear, Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, entered the main control deck, and the men around him fell silent." 
- p. 42 of the ESB novelization from 1980.
   
"...and finally Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, emerged from the void."
- p. 4 of the ROTJ novelization in 1983.

This is how Vader was introduced in all of the three original novelizations. Always a variation of the same phrase; "Dark Lord of the Sith."

 Did the novels ever go into any detail about the Sith?

Not that I can remember, and frankly I'm too lazy to re-read the three novels again just to find out. 
I literally just scanned the first chapters, looking for the word Sith, and wrote them down. It's been a few years since I read them.
However, from what I remember, the answer is no, I can only remember the term being used in relation to Vader and his "dark" ways. The ESB book definitely gave Vader some very dramatic descriptions, always describing him as a "Dark Lord" and even making a reference to him trying to steal Luke's soul during their fight on Bespin.
However scanning through the end of the ROTJ novel I can't find any references to Palpatine being a Sith. He is however referred to as "the evil one," and the novel gives him some pretty funky descriptions, such as; "his dark majesty," talking about his "wizardry," and describing his face as having "death's grin" and being "lined by holocaust." So the book is definitely trying to sell the character as a sort of tyrannical evil wizard.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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I like those photos. Funny how having a set actually grey makes it look way more Star Wars than the blue tint they've added in the trailers. The whole teal and orange thing is a big fear of mine - modern colour grading sucks. It's a lost art, colourists need a hard slap.

On a related note I'm all for them shooting on film, but if every step of the post production process is digital it's going to look digital. The only advantage I can see is that film is virtually future proof in regards to 4k, 8k and whatever inevitably follows.

I haven't read the story stuff, got to stay clear of spoilers from now on.

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dan76 said:

I like those photos. Funny how having a set actually grey makes it look way more Star Wars than the blue tint they've added in the trailers. The whole teal and orange thing is a big fear of mine - modern colour grading sucks. It's a lost art, colourists need a hard slap.

 I agree for the most part. It was cool effect 15 years ago, when it was something to make a film stand apart, but it seems now if you want a film to stand out, coloring as naturally as possible is the way to go.

I like when it's used to create a certain unnatural look to things. Like in Japanese horror films to create a sense of dread and a "things aren't right" that plays as a theme often.

I would probably be okay with it if this wasn't a star wars film. Star Wars was always my go to science fiction film, because it created a plausible world where things were used and lived in. The Millennium Falcon reminds me more of an old work truck, than a futuristic space ship. Adding a filter to it, takes me out of that world.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

<span> </span>

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The most beautiful color grading I've seen on a modern film would have to be The Homesman. Beautiful, naturalistic and vibrant color for a very sad film.

Forum Moderator
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If I had to guess the difference between the Sith and the Knights:

The Sith were individually selfish and only cared about self-survival. Their own title, "Dark Lord of the Sith", indicated they were the rulers of something (the "Sith").

Meanwhile...

When one hears about a group of knights, they imagine a group of warriors loyal to a cause, working together to serve and protect it. These are "Knights of" something, not "Dark Lords of" something. They aren't the rulers.

So, perhaps the Knights are concerned about the overall rule of the Dark Side, believing the power it holds is so great, that it's the right way of the galaxy. The Sith didn't see that far and only cared about individual domination.

Perhaps "Ren" is even a title for the Dark Side itself, who knows? That'd be a stretch, though.

And then there's Kylo, obsessed with the Sith/Darth Vader. Everything we've heard about him so far is how unbalanced he is, how driven by emotion he is. If the Knights are dedicated to the Dark Side completely and totally as a whole, as I mentioned above, then that would make Kylo the odd-one-out, looking at himself and comparing himself to a great Dark Sider of the past. Thus, that would give us a unique villain to focus on and follow on a journey deeper than blind devotion to the Dark Side.

I hope that makes sense! haha

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 (Edited)

Maybe the "Knights of Ren" are the equivalent of the old-EU "Imperial Knights" or the Sith as presented in the 1974 rough draft: basically Jedi who are loyal to the Empire (and thus technically villains), but who don't use the Force for evil stuff like trying to conquer the galaxy at large.

In other words, rpvee may be right in suggesting that Kylo Ren is the worst of a not-quite-so-bad bunch.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ZkinandBonez said:

 

At least we now know that this isn't a droid. It seems like some kind of armoured lizard creature, kind of similar to a Dewback.
The guy riding it also looks kind of familiar, have we seen him before in any production images? Or did he exist in the SW universe before TFA?

Looks similar to those gas mask-wearing aliens from the Mos Eisley cantina:

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I kind of hope the movie is nothing but teal and orange, just to piss off those of you who constantly bitch about it.

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ZkinandBonez said:

unamochilla2 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

unamochilla2 said:

rpvee said:

So is "Ren" the new "Sith"?  I hope that wasn't to avoid using the term Sith, since the name did exist long before the prequels.

Hm...

Kylo Ren isn't his real name, but rather a title. He also isn’t a Sith. He’s a member of an organization known as “The Knights Of Ren" and he is allied with the First Order.  Also, his lightsaber isn't a relic - it is something he put together himself.

While the term "Sith" did exist before the PT, I don't believe it was formally used in the OT.  It seems like TFA is going back to the roots of the series.

Although the word Sith was never specifically used in the actual moved, it was a part of the official canon back when they were making the movies.
    "Two metres tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen - a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the rebel ship."
- p. 11 of the SW novelization from 1976.      
    "Towering above them in his black cloak and concealing black headgear, Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, entered the main control deck, and the men around him fell silent." 
- p. 42 of the ESB novelization from 1980.
   
"...and finally Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, emerged from the void."
- p. 4 of the ROTJ novelization in 1983.

This is how Vader was introduced in all of the three original novelizations. Always a variation of the same phrase; "Dark Lord of the Sith."

 Did the novels ever go into any detail about the Sith?

Not that I can remember, and frankly I'm too lazy to re-read the three novels again just to find out. 
I literally just scanned the first chapters, looking for the word Sith, and wrote them down. It's been a few years since I read them.
However, from what I remember, the answer is no, I can only remember the term being used in relation to Vader and his "dark" ways. The ESB book definitely gave Vader some very dramatic descriptions, always describing him as a "Dark Lord" and even making a reference to him trying to steal Luke's soul during their fight on Bespin.
However scanning through the end of the ROTJ novel I can't find any references to Palpatine being a Sith. He is however referred to as "the evil one," and the novel gives him some pretty funky descriptions, such as; "his dark majesty," talking about his "wizardry," and describing his face as having "death's grin" and being "lined by holocaust." So the book is definitely trying to sell the character as a sort of tyrannical evil wizard.

When the OT movies and their novelizations were released, I figured that "the Sith" was Vader's Stormtrooper legion, and that Vader, being this legion's leader, was its "Dark Lord." Just like a "Grand Moff" was an Imperial Governor, a "Dark Lord" was an Imperial General. I definitely wasn't expecting "the Sith" to be a two-man dark jedi space illuminati organization who's members backstab each other for no reason. I thought that Vader and The Emperor being the only dark side users was because they weren't part of any order of Force-users, not because of some Rule of Two. I thought that Vader and The Emperor plotting against each other was just because of their personalities, not because of some ancient tradition. 

Here's hoping that the Knights of Ren don't backstab each other. 

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 (Edited)

DuracellEnergizer said:

ZkinandBonez said:

 

At least we now know that this isn't a droid. It seems like some kind of armoured lizard creature, kind of similar to a Dewback.
The guy riding it also looks kind of familiar, have we seen him before in any production images? Or did he exist in the SW universe before TFA?

Looks similar to those gas mask-wearing aliens from the Mos Eisley cantina:

 That's it, I thought he looked familiar. 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/12/star-wars-force-awakens-character-names/2
The alien is apparently named Teebo (played by Kian Shah), and the creature is called a "luggabeast."

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

In that case, I think "Phanta" or "Phantas"would have made a better homage than "Phasma".

 

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Teebo? There's already a well established Teebo!

I already gave you Kylo Ren. Stop robbing from long neglected cartoons!

Forum Moderator
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 (Edited)

Tobar said:

Teebo? There's already a well established Teebo!

I already gave you Kylo Ren. Stop robbing from long neglected cartoons!

The name Teebo did actually appear in the credits for ROTJ; http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Teebo/Canon 
It is of course possible that the new Teebo is never actually mentioned by name in the film, similarly to Bobbajo

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

darklordoftech said:

ZkinandBonez said:

unamochilla2 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

unamochilla2 said:

rpvee said:

So is "Ren" the new "Sith"?  I hope that wasn't to avoid using the term Sith, since the name did exist long before the prequels.

Hm...

Kylo Ren isn't his real name, but rather a title. He also isn’t a Sith. He’s a member of an organization known as “The Knights Of Ren" and he is allied with the First Order.  Also, his lightsaber isn't a relic - it is something he put together himself.

While the term "Sith" did exist before the PT, I don't believe it was formally used in the OT.  It seems like TFA is going back to the roots of the series.

Although the word Sith was never specifically used in the actual moved, it was a part of the official canon back when they were making the movies.
    "Two metres tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen - a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the rebel ship."
- p. 11 of the SW novelization from 1976.      
    "Towering above them in his black cloak and concealing black headgear, Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, entered the main control deck, and the men around him fell silent." 
- p. 42 of the ESB novelization from 1980.
   
"...and finally Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, emerged from the void."
- p. 4 of the ROTJ novelization in 1983.

This is how Vader was introduced in all of the three original novelizations. Always a variation of the same phrase; "Dark Lord of the Sith."

 Did the novels ever go into any detail about the Sith?

Not that I can remember, and frankly I'm too lazy to re-read the three novels again just to find out. 
I literally just scanned the first chapters, looking for the word Sith, and wrote them down. It's been a few years since I read them.
However, from what I remember, the answer is no, I can only remember the term being used in relation to Vader and his "dark" ways. The ESB book definitely gave Vader some very dramatic descriptions, always describing him as a "Dark Lord" and even making a reference to him trying to steal Luke's soul during their fight on Bespin.
However scanning through the end of the ROTJ novel I can't find any references to Palpatine being a Sith. He is however referred to as "the evil one," and the novel gives him some pretty funky descriptions, such as; "his dark majesty," talking about his "wizardry," and describing his face as having "death's grin" and being "lined by holocaust." So the book is definitely trying to sell the character as a sort of tyrannical evil wizard.

When the OT movies and their novelizations were released, I figured that "the Sith" was Vader's Stormtrooper legion, and that Vader, being this legion's leader, was its "Dark Lord." Just like a "Grand Moff" was an Imperial Governor, a "Dark Lord" was an Imperial General. I definitely wasn't expecting "the Sith" to be a two-man dark jedi space illuminati organization who's members backstab each other for no reason. I thought that Vader and The Emperor being the only dark side users was because they weren't part of any order of Force-users, not because of some Rule of Two. I thought that Vader and The Emperor plotting against each other was just because of their personalities, not because of some ancient tradition. 

Here's hoping that the Knights of Ren don't backstab each other. 

I'm pretty sure that the whole Sith thing was something that Lucas had planned from the beginning. Sure, the whole "rule of two" thing is something he added in the PT, but the term Sith always referred to an evil version of the Jedi order. Heck even the rough draft of the ANH script had several members of the "Knights of the Sith" in it. What's interesting is that the way the Sith were described in the rough draft was actually more similar to the Knights of Ren. Not so much evil, but affiliated with the Empire. 
However the OT and the novelizations put a lot of emphasis on the whole Dark Lord thing, and Palpatine being pure evil. Heck just look at (and listen to) his death in ROTJ, it's something you'd expect from Sauron in LOTR. I think the Sith were always meant to be sort of evil wizard cultists.
The thing that I find weird however, that is when taking the EU into account, is how little both Vader and even to some degree Palpatine act as Sith. They're more like Dark Jedi's; hording power for themselves and refusing to join any group other than their own. So Palpatine is more of a disobedient Sith, he follows their evil and mystical ways, but refuses to share it with anyone else, and is quite the backstabber. He's hardly a Sith Knight, or part of any cult, yet he does embody everything about it.  

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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Turns out the character's name is Teedo not Teebo. Oh and his mount is called a Luggabeast.

Forum Moderator
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Kinda looks like the scavenged head of an AT-DP , a concept walker from the Rebels TV show, as if it was hollowed out and used as a helmet!

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cap10 said:

Kinda looks like the scavenged head of an AT-DP , a concept walker from the Rebels TV show, as if it was hollowed out and used as a helmet!

Makes sense with all the wreckage left over from the Battle of Jakku.

(The design is also a fair bit older than the Rebels TV show. Apparently it's taken from the original concept drawing of the AT-ST's in ESB.)

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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towne32 said:

EW says they're going to have more articles tomorrow. Apparently about Han Solo, this time.

 It's up now. Really enjoyed this one. 

Later today, an article about the Han Solo origin flick. I'm slightly less wary about it, knowing that it's been in the writing stage for even longer than VII rather than some rush job.

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I thought the Han article was kind of meh. It really just went into greater depth about stuff that we already knew, which I guess is cool, but I was hoping for new info or images. That bit about Ford's reunion with Peter Mayhew is a nice thing to know, though.

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 (Edited)

It was nice to get some actual confirmation that the film wasn't affected by his injury. Of course, they've claimed that it wouldn't be from the start. But Abrams is being honest at this point, discussing the fact that he was thinking he would have to re-write it into a part where Solo mostly sits down (yikes). Also interesting to hear the bit about how the downtime was actually beneficial for the film in terms of allowing re-writes and re-shoots. Perhaps it will have saved them from a poor decision or two.

The 'names' article yesterday was extremely meh, though. Almost as captivating as the usual Lego sighting 'articles' we generally get these days.