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Thought on de-SE'ing the DVD

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I had an idea for the more serious and most altruistic laserphiles on the board. Being LD-player challenged myself, sometimes I can still throw an idea out hopefully inspire somebody to run with it. Hopefully this post doesn't break any of the board's rules. (If so, I'll be happy to edit it or have Jay junk it altogether). Can't be any worse than a user selling their projects for cash, which I abhorr.

There are any number of DVD editing tools on the market for the less-savvy video editors. They don't require demuxing and fudging around with the audio, as they simply cut and splice VOBs. The weakness is they cut only on keyframes, as opposed to frame-accurate editing. If somebody (or several somebodies) were to make note of where the keyframes of certain offending SE changes begin and end, and then release "fixes" in the form of matching VOB files to plug and play into those regions, then the Do-It-Yourself process for de-SE'ing the OT could be made available to the great unwashed masses, and not just the seasoned editors. Plus, by having smaller VOB files of just the individual changes available, (a) there would be less bandwith to consume and (b) archivers could actually pick-and-choose which parts they would want to restore. One could argue that this would even fit under the definition of fair use for an educational project (who posted that last week? Great stuff!) since the idea is really about how to make seamless editing around keyframes. Plus, the smaller snippets may very well fall under fair use, since individually they'd fit within the legal time constraints for sampled material.

The key would be VOBs whose beginning and end match the offical disc's keyframes precicely.

This won't solve the entire freakin' rear-channel music being reversed, but it otherwise might help nicely with restoring OT elements into the official DVD.

Thoughts from you experienced editors?

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

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the PAL and NTSC releases probably have different keyframes just for a start. And it's not going to be the original trilogy, just a polished turd. IMHO.
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Its a neat kind of idea, but the amount of changes are huge, and getting the audio to seamlessly slot in would be really quite impossible. e.g. when you make a scene shorter, what happens to the sound/music etc. if you just inserted/removed scenes you end up with a disjointed mess.
Its a shame, but I don't think it would work.
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What might actually be REALLY useful is if some LD equipped people were willing to make avaiable their raw capture footage of just certain problem areas. I'm thinking the one shot of Han before he fires first in the cantina; the shot of Garrindan which in the OT transitions to Ben and Luke "If the ship's as fast as he's boasting...", but which in the SE has an iris-in on Jabba at the Falcon. That kind of stuff. Just some key parts of shots where it's impossible to use the DVD footage. Nothing lengthy, so as to save on upload time for anyone generous enough to do it.

Well, I've actually been thinking it's about time to start a DE-SEing the DVDs thread, actually. There seems to be a greater and greater number of people working on projects along these lines at the moment, and there are some common issues everyone is going to have to face. It's true, we're all polishing turds to some extent, but at least these turds aren't going to smell quite so bad. And, since most people working on these things aren't professional editors and post people, nor have Avid desks in their houses, it makes sense to share what we learn, and have a place to go for help if we're stuck on something. I agree though that it's unfortunetly going to require more work than just swapping vobs, you're just going to have to learn some basic editing

I'll kick it off:

Currently working on VOB 2_3 and 2_4 of the ANH hope disc. This is everything from Ben seeing Leias' hologram to some random stuff on the DS. I started here, becuase it's where the most obvious and heinous crap needs to be fixed. So, where to begin? Well, obviously the Greedo scene needs to be restored, so that's where I began. I'm using the DVDs and trying to piece them together with the LD footage available on ISOMIX, Anamorphic, and TR47 sets.

General Problems: The DVD is cropped much tighter than the LD transfers, PLUS the aspect ration is wonky. Any use of the LD stuff is going to first need to be corrected as best you can to fit the DVD (since that's the better resolution footage, I've used that as my benchmark). Lowry also did a bunch of colour correcting (and, I'll use that term loosely...), which throws the footage WAY off of the LD colours. Oh yeah, and it's pretty random from scene to scene. Enjoy. This may be the trickiest part of the edit. You ALSO may run into some weird problems between VOBS. For example, When I open 2_3 and 2_4 in Vegas, and splice them together, for some reason I'm missing quite a few frames in the shot of Han closing the hatch, and running to the cockpit. I have no idea why this should be, and would LOVE someone to suggest a solution!!!!!!!!! I know the footage is there, obviously, but it simply doesn't work properly in Vegas. Finally, you're probably going to have to create a new audio track. This isn't a big thing, especially if, like me, you don't care about loosing the 5.1 mix. If you're on the right track, usually you'll be able to simply drop in the audio from one of the LD transfers. For later fixes, like the battle of Yavin, I anticipate more problems as I try to cut certain CG shots, and leave others...but that's the future.


Han Shoots First:

Diagnosis and Treatment -
At first glance it looks like you can just cut out the wide angle shot of the exchange of fire, drop in some version of the OT audio, and be done with it. Well, sadly that's not quite right. The "yes, I'll bet you have" shot has been trimmed both comming and going. The front end of the shot, I GUESS, to speed up the pace of the sequence (why?), and the end of the shot because there is a frame or two of muzzle flash as HAN SHOOTS FIRST. The best solution I found so far is to stretch and crop two different LD transfers of the shot (I used the Anamorphic and the ISOMIX versions), composite them together (gave me a more solid looking image, I think), and use that to repalce the DVD shot. Finally, you'll either have to colour correct the LD footage or the entire cantina sequence from the DVD, as Lowry did some kinda weird shit in there, making Han look sunburned. There is obviously a drop in quality, BUT since it is a relatively short piece of footage, it isn't too badly noticeable as long as you get the colour correction close.

Lingering Symptoms -
Well, obviously it would be nice to have a better resolution LD transfer, but until that happens, we're pretty much stuck with the quality. One thing I am having difficulty with is an odd colour balancing issue. Everything looks fairly good EXCEPT the DVD footage has blue highlights on Hans' boot, while the corrected LD footage shows it dark red-brown. I'm stumped on how to fix this without ruining the rest of the balance, and would love some input from you guys here. If anyone knows where to post images for free, I'll put up some caps.


Garrindan

Diagnosis and Treatment -
This is the shot of Ben and Luke walking through Mos Eisley after selling the speeder, and being followed by Garrindan. In the OT, this does a blinds-transition to "If the ship's as fast as he's boasting, we ought to do well.". In the SE, this irises-in on Jabba at the Falcon. Further complicating this is that the two shots are colour balanced differently from each other, so a simple use of the LD footage doesn't work, unless you wish to use it for the ENTIRE section. Balancing this I again found tricky, trying to hit the bright green of the foliage in the first shot, while not washing everything in green.

Lingering Symptoms -
Well, this is still looking rough. I tried just repalcing the transition with LD material, but the cropping, aspect ratio, and colour are just so different from the DVD, that it's a sudden POP when you switch to from DVD to LD material. My edit replaces the WHOLE shot of Ben, Luke, and Garrindan with one copy of the LD footage, colour corrected to try and match the DVD footage. As the transition starts, I crossfade to ANOTHER copy of the footage, this one balanced to try and match the incomming shot. This crossfades out very quickly to the DVD footage of "If the ship's...", as the LD actually can be made to fit pretty neatly into the aspect ratio of the DVD footage here. So, you get a soft switch in resolution, but it's quick. It's by no means perfect, and still undergoing treatment, but at least I don't have to look at TPM Jabba anymore..man, somehow ILM managed to make the animation on him WORSE than the "original" SE....


COMMING SOON: The entrance to Mos Eisley, and the banishing of that digital elephant guy in the cantina.



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I admire your efforts. One fact just sticks out in my mind though: ANY laserdisc footage you splice in will be immediately recognizable as such. There is no way to reproduce the detail that the dvd's have, even after extensive, frame-by-frame filtering and color-correction. I still fail to see how anyone is going to be able to pull this off and make it look seamless.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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I'm for a De SEing thread. at the least it will consolidate the changes that have to be made. the big thing as you say is the difference in colour tone and contrast between the material. I think that to DE SE properly, we have to use the 97 SE version of ANH as our base file. I reason this because lowry so screwed the colour balance. not their fault, they did a lot in a month but there are obviously a lot of issues. in fact, I would go so far as to say that about the only thing worth saving from the SE DVD release is the 5.1 AC3 sound which we are still going to have to seperate into 6 mono wav's and diddle to correc the space battle sound mix and edit properly for the omissions we are going to take out, like the jabba scene and mos eisley entrance.

still use the SE DVD for things like the final space battle becaues the space shots are better corrected, but even then, perhaps some form of overlay is going to be needed because of how the laser blasts have been meddled with and the stars wiped out.

using the 97 SE means we've got something that is better color corrected and sharper than the OT LD. then use the minimal amount of OT LD footage to correct back to the OT cut.

taken as a whole that should then give us OT visuals with advanced sound fx.
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg
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Well I said, actually that the drop is noticeable. To repeat, it's still a polished turd, just a better smelling one. The question is, what's more objectionable; A clean, hi-res transfer of the films with occasional second-long drops in quality, or a clean, hi-res transfer of the film where Han springboards off Jabba's tail, Han does the funky Chicita head bob thing ("Oh no she DI-INT!") to avoid crappy laserfire, Rontos scamper playfully to and fro causing hijinks and hilarity in Mos Eisley, to sample just a portion of the SE menu. So far, I think the drop in quality is more palatable to me.
Also, I'll make the plea here for someone with LD capture ability to make the bits and pieces available somehow. It would help enormously to have the raw captures instead of the compressed MPEG files to work with as well.
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Precisely my idea as well, to use the 2004 version where possible, fall back on the 1997 version and use the 1993/1995 version only where necessary.

Moll.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Actually, with the Combustion software, I could "undo" what Lucas did, which essentially was cutting and pasting Han in a difference section of the frame. It would be quite easy, in fact. The benefit would be that such a fix would use the high-quality (although generally miscolored) video of the DVD. In Vegas, I can overlay the DVD video onto the LD video, to make sure Han is sitting precisely where he belongs (and yes, as Laserman can attest to, Greedo's shot can be edited out as well. )

I'll have to borrow my father-in-law's DVDs and try it out.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Okay, started responding before your edit made it clear what shot you were talking about. I'm just not sure what the point would be. The only thing that needs to be done to that sequence is to replace the "Bet you have" shot, which is trimmed in the SE, and doesn't play well if you just cut the exchange of fire.


Oh, and Zion, "I WANT CHAINSAW HANDS! BzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!"
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I'm going to keep Han seated where he belongs, and remove Greedo's shot, so that only Han fires in the scene.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Ah, interesting. So you're going to try and edit in the wide angle shot of the firing. Okay, I get it now.
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Originally posted by: tellan
I'm for a De SEing thread. at the least it will consolidate the changes that have to be made. the big thing as you say is the difference in colour tone and contrast between the material. I think that to DE SE properly, we have to use the 97 SE version of ANH as our base file. I reason this because lowry so screwed the colour balance. not their fault, they did a lot in a month but there are obviously a lot of issues. in fact, I would go so far as to say that about the only thing worth saving from the SE DVD release is the 5.1 AC3 sound which we are still going to have to seperate into 6 mono wav's and diddle to correc the space battle sound mix and edit properly for the omissions we are going to take out, like the jabba scene and mos eisley entrance.

still use the SE DVD for things like the final space battle becaues the space shots are better corrected, but even then, perhaps some form of overlay is going to be needed because of how the laser blasts have been meddled with and the stars wiped out.

using the 97 SE means we've got something that is better color corrected and sharper than the OT LD. then use the minimal amount of OT LD footage to correct back to the OT cut.

taken as a whole that should then give us OT visuals with advanced sound fx.


I must repeat, Lowry had nothing to do with the colours. In another thread somewhere I have posted links to articles from Apple's and StarWars' official site where it is clearly stated all the colour work and effects, etc were done by LucasFilm, Lowry simply cleaned the film to make it practically free of dust, scratches, etc.

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I'd be interested in taking a look at anyone's efforts in this feild.

Granted, it will not look perfect. But I'd rather have original footage in lower quality where it's needed than crap footage in high quality.

I think the outstanding picture quality for the *majority* of the film would be worth it.

And even if it's not all that worth it, I'll still have my TR47s around.

PM me if you want.

EDIT:

Oh and yes, please use this principle when editing:
Precisely my idea as well, to use the 2004 version where possible, fall back on the 1997 version and use the 1993/1995 version only where necessary.

It'll be much better for 2004 changes.

I never had the nerve to make the final cut.

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Originally posted by: INv8r_ZIM
What might actually be REALLY useful is if some LD equipped people were willing to make avaiable their raw capture footage of just certain problem areas. I'm thinking the one shot of Han before he fires first in the cantina; the shot of Garrindan which in the OT transitions to Ben and Luke "If the ship's as fast as he's boasting...", but which in the SE has an iris-in on Jabba at the Falcon. That kind of stuff. Just some key parts of shots where it's impossible to use the DVD footage. Nothing lengthy, so as to save on upload time for anyone generous enough to do it.

Bingo. That's exactly what I was getting at. Knowing how meticulous some of you are, I actually think you'll do a more impressive job getting video and audio to match than you're giving yourselves credit.

Heh ... I said "bingo." I should have said "gringo."

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

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LOL! Figures you would bring that up again.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I must repeat, Lowry had nothing to do with the colours. In another thread somewhere I have posted links to articles from Apple's and StarWars' official site where it is clearly stated all the colour work and effects, etc were done by LucasFilm, Lowry simply cleaned the film to make it practically free of dust, scratches, etc.


links? I'd be interested in readin that actually. the whole DVD process articles would make an interesting read. if it wasn't lowry then lucasfilm are even more guilty for rushing this thing out than I thought.
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg
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don't matter, I found this one

apple article
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg
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okay, now I've read this, the more I become convinced Lucasfilm just rushed this to get some money this year prior to May 2005 for ROTS and then the subsequent DVD release of everything.

considering Citizen Kane was restored over the course of a year and Lowry were given one month 'per' movie that's pretty disgusting. but then, lowrys work on sharpening etc is good, I don't think anyone disputes that. what is criminal is the bizarre color matching done by Lucasfilm to make the original film match the prequels for palette and tone.

no fan boy would have let such skewed values be approved.
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg
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Allright then... um...

How about De-SEzing a decent '97 SE bootleg? The quality of that would be worth the editing involved, and the color would be fine.

I never had the nerve to make the final cut.

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Well that's what I am going to do.

use a combination of original trilogy, SE 97 and SE 2004 DVD in each case color correcting for it all to match.

SE 2004 DVD used as much as possible, although the opening crawl and starfield is better on my 97 copy. + mos eisley will probably be the OT, although the speeder was corrected, I do not want Ronto's in any bloody shots if I can help it. no frigging spy droids either.
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg
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Sounds great. Good luck in that.

PM me if you have any more information. I'd love to see it when your finished.

I never had the nerve to make the final cut.

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I thought the speeder looked worse actually in the SEs anyways.
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???? why?

I thought that was one of the changes that wasn't bad.
When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg