The MeBeJedi feedback thread — Page 7

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 15-Nov-2004 2:40 AM
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Speaking of which - take a look at this, everyone. Is it better? Is it sacrilegious? Is it noticeable?

Lightsaber

I'll post specific comparison pics later. See what you can find.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Laserman
Time: 15-Nov-2004 4:59 AM
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Khamul, It is a piece of cake to write a virtuadub filter to do what you want, but it doesn't really work all that well as you inevitably end up with detail disappearing from somewhere else, Its fast enuf to paint them out with combustion anyhow.

If you want a *really* boring job, then roto out 4 puppeteers from a scene with a pig puppet climbing up a mountain of suitcases a frame at a time by hand for 1421 frames, and then have the scene cut down to 240 frames in the final release.

Author: Laserman
Time: 15-Nov-2004 5:04 AM
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How close are you to getting your 'prisitine master?

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 15-Nov-2004 8:01 AM
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I'm almost done with the first third.

Did you look at my lightsaber scene?

"and then have the scene cut down to 240 frames in the final release."

LOL! I hope you didn't get paid for just the 240.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: tellan
Time: 15-Nov-2004 9:54 AM
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lol. sounds like a friend of mine who used to work at the Mill. he spent about two weeks doing a shot where a guy thrashes around in a lit flooded corridor . he then comp'ed in a CG tentactle and lots of water splashes to blend it in to the scene.

then the director changed his mind and reshot the scene in the dark which meant my mate doing it all again. language was colourful to say the least.

When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

http://www.auky37.dsl.pipex.com/falconlogo_web.jpg

Author: tellan
Time: 15-Nov-2004 10:09 AM
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um, not meaning to be rude, but what exactly was supposed to be fixed in that scene? did you cut out the camera jump before he switches on the lightsaber or something???

When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 15-Nov-2004 12:52 PM
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No, I'm not offended. I was honestly curious to see if the "fixes" would be seen or not (although I'm tempted to try to fix Luke's "head bob". He looks like an SE Han Solo.

)

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Tikigod
Time: 15-Nov-2004 3:02 PM
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I just frame-by-framed through the whole thing and I can't notice any differences between the top and the bottom images. The jumps in Luke, Obi-Wan and 3PO all seem the same, the color and consistency of the lightsaber look the same and you can still see the shadow of the saber stick on 3PO near the end....

Soooooo, what should we be looking for?

Unless you just put the same video on the top and the bottom and are trying to make us go crazy.

*shakes fist*

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 15-Nov-2004 3:06 PM
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There are five "fixes". I'll post the specific frames later this evening, after people have had a chance to look it over.

In other news, I just found out that Vegas has been recreating the actual 2-3 pulldown in the MPEG stream, rather than just setting the 2-3 flags. This means that my MPEG has been 29.976, versus 23.976. When I encoded this lightsaber sequence using both methods, there was a 3 Mb difference for an 18 second segment. That's a pretty big difference when spread out over the entire film.

Long story short, I can safely lower the compression level of my MPEG, without increasing the size.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Tikigod
Time: 15-Nov-2004 4:01 PM
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Ooops

okay, I lied.

I went frame-by frame through SOME of the clip, then I waded through even more and came up with a few frames like this:

http://img128.exs.cx/img128/423/saberchange.jpg

My apologies for doubting you.

They are very good fixes though, they maintain the low-tech look of the original saber effects and blend in very well with the rest of the scene.

Nice work!

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 15-Nov-2004 4:36 PM
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That's one.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Tikigod
Time: 15-Nov-2004 5:40 PM
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Well here's all the changes I can find:

http://img106.exs.cx/img106/3125/saberchange1.jpg

----------

http://img106.exs.cx/img106/3915/saberchange2.jpg

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http://img106.exs.cx/img106/5645/saberchange3.jpg

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http://img106.exs.cx/img106/9978/saberchange4.jpg

----------

http://img106.exs.cx/img106/4018/saberchange5.jpg

If there's any more than that, then they really ARE subtle.

Looking at all these screenshots lined up, it's really clear how much the over-all color of the scene jumps around. The first two are blueish, the second two are kinda pink and the last has a green hue. Looks like it'll be hell to try and balance everything out if you're gonna attempt it. You certainly have your work cut out for you, man!

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 15-Nov-2004 6:32 PM
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Actually, that's the extent to which I'm going on them (and yes, you found every single one. Here's a cookie

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/cookie-ch.jpg

)

As you can see from a frame-by-frame viewing, the "blade" changes color and shape quite often. The first pic you found (the bottom of the above list), was the only one that is a composite of several parts (and the worst quality, in my opinion). The others are simple cut&paste jobs which were resized and rotated to match the outline of the original blade. The last three pics suffered from the "Obi-wan" syndrome, where the tip was lit, but the unlit shaft was visible, so I tried to cover the shaft as much as possible.

Anyways, it's hardly noticeable at regular play speed (since they are only a frame in duration), but I may go ahead and leave them as such. I was just wondering if I was going to get a "Purist" backlash (is DanielB reading this?

), but since the fixes involved original lightsaber effects, it didn't seem like such a bad idea to me. (I intend to do this for Obi-wan's and Vader's lightsabers as well.)

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: DanielB
Time: 16-Nov-2004 2:33 AM
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MeBeJedi are you going to release your set unedited? Because that is not preserving the theatrical version. I know you might say that the changes make it better, or are "only small" - but all in all it's the same thing Lucas did.

Author: drjimmy526
Time: 16-Nov-2004 3:49 AM
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I think that improving imperfections in the LaserDisc transfer, rotoscoping out scratches or dirt, for example, is completely acceptable. However, I do feel that the original effect shots, inconsistent lightsabers, matte lines, flaws and all, should definitely be preserved in an Original OT archival transfer project.

I think it's a small step into Lucas territory even when one starts fixing lightsabers. Which shots should be fixed? Should Luke's white-ish saber in the Falcon be color corrected? Should Vader's blade-less stick be painted over in the blast door closing bit? I think even if you decided to make a separate encode with these minor improvements/fixes, there would be disagreement over what should be corrected and what should be preserved the way we all remember it. Of course, it's your set...

Author: tellan
Time: 16-Nov-2004 4:18 AM
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time to dip my toe into this proverbial minefield.

I take the line of the original Special edition from 97 to some extent. anything done to fix slightly dodgy fx shots that were originally missed on the film due to release pressures is okay, and by that I mean

restoring the close the blast doors line
restoring the 3po line in the control room
keeping all the digitally recomposited space battle shots but not the new CG shots. after all, the recomping fixes original matte lines.
ditch extended mos eisley cos it's shit
ditch jabba scene cos it makes a nonsense of the greedo scene earlier
original greedo please because that is a character contextural change.

also for example, in empire, keeping all of the digitally recomp'ed snow battle as that cured matte lines.

so, only keep stuff that fixes but does not change original movie.

now, the more conjectural, the new matte shot of ben's house, the beefed up skyline from the canyon, the new jawa wipe. bit torn here. they are better but is it in keeping with the movie?

the new matte for ben's house is a damn site better than the shot used in the OT which, like the crap mos eisley approach shot I think was done last second as an establishing shot.

the jawa sandcrawler I couldn't care less about because it does nothing new over the original and the new skyline for the canyon is more a color correction than anything else so I think in this area, I would accept that. however, by the same token in Jedi, I would not accept the herd of bantha before Jabba's sail barge because it doesn't need to be there. it's a modern movie thing to have a longer scenic establishing shot and the rest of the trilogy does not have them so therefore it's a frivolous addition, same goes for the Vader shuttle thing at the end of empire and the added shots of the Wampa. Kersh did a bang up old style movie job with the wampa, and the old adage less is more applies here very well. we don't need to see the creature to know it's bloody big and scary.

When a woman says yes, she means no - when she says maybe, she means no.

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 16-Nov-2004 9:37 AM
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"but all in all it's the same thing Lucas did."

Then avoid my version at all costs. Hell, you can't even see these fixes at viewing speed.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: eros
Time: 16-Nov-2004 2:26 PM
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
"but all in all it's the same thing Lucas did."

Then avoid my version at all costs. Hell, you can't even see these fixes at viewing speed.

So what's the point in doing them?

Author: Zion
Time: 16-Nov-2004 3:58 PM
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You CAN tell the difference in the shots if you know what you're looking for. And if you're one that knows what you're looking for, you will appreciate the difference.

Besides, there's something to be said for preservists like MeBe and myself. We're the ones going through these films frame-by-frame. If we see something that we can fix so that we can better appreciate the finished product, then that's good enough reason to do it.

I don't know about MeBe, but I will be fixing the white saber shots in my version.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 16-Nov-2004 5:18 PM
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Wow...maybe I should just give up altogether? Heaven forbid i should make each frame as presentable as possible. Hell, there are hundreds of glitchs in the transfer that aren't readily "visible", yet I went and fixed them for a better overall picture. I guess I should put those back too? Not only that, but I should probably go back and put in some film grain.

And let's not even think about adjusting the brightness/contrast, etc. If we can't get it exactly to the "original theatrical print", then why bother, right?!?

"I will be fixing the white saber shots in my version."

As will I.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: Tikigod
Time: 16-Nov-2004 6:11 PM
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My whole view on this thing is that if the final product of MeBeJedi or Zion's transfer looks like the effects could have been created in 1977 under the BEST possible circumstances, then it's okay.

The huge changes like inserted CGI or new scenes and editing changes are what separates the original versions from the special editions, in my mind.

If the editing, narrative and general "retro" look remain intact, I'm fine with it.

And also, I applaud you, MeBeJedi, for crawling through this thing frame by frame and removing all the scratches and rot spots by hand. That's just crazy and shows enormous dedication and grants you the right to do anything you'd like to your version of the Trilogy.

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 16-Nov-2004 8:01 PM
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Ironically, as much as I knew this would make DanielB's butt pucker up, it's funny to think that, had I not mentioned anything about this change (much less provide a frame-for-frame comparison reel), NO ONE would have known about it. Everyone would have been happy as pigs in shit about having such a clean copy of the laserdiscs. To compare such changes to the monstronsity that is the SE's is just flat-out ludicrous. Even Tikigod, who was told that there was something to find (and even doubted my claim

) had to look very carefully, one frame at a time, to find these changes. Anyone else would have just blinked and missed it.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.

Author: ADigitalMan
Time: 16-Nov-2004 8:28 PM
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MBJ, while we're on the topic of preservism, you need to re-insert the "cigarette burns" in the upper right hand corner that signifies reel changes. After all, they were in the theatrical prints. And the clock-wipe countdown from eight seconds. That was most certainly seen in theaters in 1977. And, gawd, get rid of that hideous "Episode IV A NEW HOPE" garbage that was put onto the crawl. What is that all about? That wasn't there in '77. I mean, what is the point of calling it the original trilogy if it has any of these pointless fixes in it?

Now that I think back to when I saw it in theaters in its initial run, the reel broke during the scene when the Stormtroopers shot Leia . I think it is IMPERATIVE that you restore the visual of a burning film frame, followed by about five minutes of total silence. After all, that's how I saw the movie in theaters, so it MUST be how it's supposed to be.

Ouch! Somebody help me get my tongue out of my cheek here.

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

Author: Zion
Time: 16-Nov-2004 8:55 PM
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lol

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

Author: MeBeJedi
Time: 16-Nov-2004 9:07 PM
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Speaking of funny, where is your cartoon from? I'm ashamed to say I forgot where I've seen it from.

MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.

MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.

JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.