I didn't see any signs of it in Laserdisc Master's version, so I am a little hopeful it takes care of that problem.
@ Laserdisc Master
Although it is an amazing cleanup script, and it certainly adresses many of the issues with the GOUT in the best way I've seen so far, it does introduce a slightly cartoony look to 3PO and R2 in the video sample, and in the face of the soldier from frame 5121:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124557
Take the eye brows for example. Some of the details in the hairs are enhanced, while others are removed, making them look a bit artificial somehow. But aside from that minor critisism, great work Laserdisc Man! I think we should release a cleaned up and raw version, as you proposed :-D.
Here's the super resolution sample for the prequel deleted scene:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8_LYKyZDiajUWFhcEt6aGpVSjA/view?usp=sharing
Some of the shots in the source seem very out of focus, so there's not much that can be done about those.
Although I was tempted to do a cleanup (including reducing aliasing), I came to the conclusion that it was not possible for me to reduce one artifact without introducing others. I think Laserdisc Man's method is probably the best I've seen so far, so I'm not going to attempt to compete with him.
My upscale is trying to squeeze as much detail out of the GOUT as possible, while maintaining the original viewing experience. This is why for the last version of my script I put much effort in keeping the GOUT's original grain intact, while undoing any unwanted noise enhancement.
I agree that, when making a cleanup, some details are enhanced, while others are diminished or even lost - see the stars... (--_) - but I tried also to find the best way, that is FAR from perfection, of course, to make the upscaled version similar to the real HD; back to the soldier shot, if you see the hairs, in your versions there are "stairsteps", and also in the helmet strap... I hate that, I prefer "smooth" diagonals, even if, again, something will be lost...
About grain: I'm sorry to say that grain present in the GOUT - like in all other DVD, and laserdisc as well - is not the original one found in the movie, because it will be impossible to resolve fine grain with a standard definition video, with "old" MPEG2 codec, at low bitrates... it's mainly the "ghost" of the grain, what it remains after the encoding, and when upscaled you have an enlarged version that, I must admit, helps to increase the perception of fine details, but it's not the "real deal"... in my version, I scrub what it was supposed to be grain, and add a real 35mm grain plate; obviously purists will cry scandal, while I think it's better to have a good replacement, instead of a bad "reinterpretation"... do you agree?
Of course, there are always the ones who like the cleaned version, some others who like the raw version, and few others who like 1997, 2004 or 2011 Special Editions! (^^,)
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@ Laserdisc Master
While I would agree an upscaled "stair effect" is undesirable, I do not agree the lines should be smooth at the near pixel level. At this level, much of the details and structure are created by subtle differences in individual pixels creating the perception of detail from a distance. The eyebrows for example are supposed to be pixelated, because the actual hairs themselves are at a subpixel level. By forcing them to be smooth at the super pixel level, they now seem unrealistically thick. The same is actually also true for the soldiers hair.
It's actually interesting to compare both methods to the simple upscale.
Avisynth Spline64Resize vs MagicUpSR5 + MagiClean2:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124619
Avisynth Spline64Resize vs super resolution v7:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123815
While super resolution v7 simply adds detail, MagicUpSR5 & MagiClean2 alterations are less subtle, enhancing details more strongly at the super pixel level, but reducing detail at the pixel level.
The problem with removing the GOUT "grain" is that the detail at this level is also removed, and obviously not restored by adding a realistic grain plate. So I would agree it's better to have a good replacement than a bad reinterpretation, but not at the cost of what to me is more important, namely what is behind the grain.
DrDre, may you post frame 4584, using your SR7, both at 1280x544 and 1920x816? Thanks!!!
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@ Laserdisc Master
720p:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124690
1080p:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124691
Could you post frame 12342?:
Here you are...
MagicUpSR5 + MagiClean2 Vs MagicUp + MagiClean2 (1280x544):
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124716
first is based on SuperResolution, while second is not; as you can see, SR retain more details, but also it has a lot of jagged lines...
SuperResolution V7 Vs MagicUp + MagiClean (1920x816):
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124717
here SR has some more small details (lights, for example) but a LOT of jagged lines, too much for my taste... (^^,) plus, don't know why you have decided to crop some lines at the sides...
I think it could be possible to have "the best of both world" using a SR or not, based on the shot.
By the way, the best vertical size for 1080p should be 822 = 274 x 3!
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@ Laserdisc Master
Thanks a lot! I cut a few bars, because CatBus explained to me that the first 8 and last 8 pixels are not supposed to be in the frame. This leads to a 704x480 frame, displayed at 640x480, with an aspect ratio of 4:3. When upscaling 3x you get 1920x1080. So the only way to get the correct aspect ratio is to scale the 704x274 frame to 720p or 1080p. The reason I use 1920x816 is because it corresponds to an aspect ratio of 2.35:1.
For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_analogue_blanking
Well, to be clear, "supposed to" doesn't necessarily line up with reality. Accounting for blanking makes little sense in a world where DVD's are expected to be played back over all-digital connections, so modern DVDs frequently go right to the edges. But older discs tend to put some room for blanking on the sides, and that seems to include the GOUT. If there's usable image within the blanking area, you're free to decide what you want done with it, as long as you maintain the right aspect ratio. I tend to just chop it, because it was designed for that to happen.
Although at first I was enthousiastic about a deringing filter I implemented, it turns out it removes many details in the process, so I decided to stick to super resolution v7.
It's no disgrace to replace the old "out of bounds" area with black bars, if aspect ratio resizing will be a limiting factor without them.
@ Laserdisc Master
I'm kind of curious how MagicUp/Clean would handle frame 6167. I tried to clean it in the past, but didn't get very positive feedback. It's a really difficult frame, because of the amount of grain. Here's how it's going to look in my upscale:
Here you are the comparison:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124947
Meanwhile, I tried a "new way": upscale the GOUT using "smooth" settings; not nearly comparable to SuperResolution, but jagged lines are (almost all) gone; it seems more "filmlike", but I need some feedback from someone who could watch it in a full HD TV set...
GOUT HD "soft" upscale - 1080p, 2m04s, 20mbps, 300MB, no audio:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/srefc8
be rough, don't worry, this is only a preliminary test - it took 4 hours to encode it...
Credits: based on G-force GOUT stabilization script
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@ Laserdisc Master
Thanks for posting the screenshot comparison. Very good cleanup! Just watched your clip on HD-TV. It looks really good. It certainly is the most photorealistic upscale you have done so far. Very good job on removing the jaggies!
DrDre, thanks a lot!
I tried to do the soft upscale, after watching around some actual film captures; less details than BD, but also more... filmlike (of course!), maybe due to "roundness" of the lines, no jagged lines... don't know how to explain better... yes, photorealistic could be used for that kind of image!
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These screenshots show super resolution v7's strengths and weaknesses. A lot of detail is recovered (see Vader's chestplate in the last comparison for example), but the ringing around objects is enhanced also, and the aliasing is more apparent, due to the sharper edges.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124980
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124981
I think we will have to choose the lesser of two evils here. Either we get more detail, but we get more ringing and enhanced aliasing. Or we go for a smoother look, but loose detail.
Personally, I would still go with SR7, just because the de-grained look of MagicUp looks waxy and unnatural to me. The clarity of the picture is amazing, and it still benefits being released, as everyone has different tastes and preferences.
You both have done incredible work nevertheless!
Zyrother said:
Personally, I would still go with SR7, just because the de-grained look of MagicUp looks waxy and unnatural to me.
Have you watched my last test clip - the soft upscale?
Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com
It would be interesting to compare both methods to Team Blu's Star Wars upscale. Since I don't have that one, I wonder if someone could provide some screenshots for comparison?
@LaserDisc Master
I totally missed that, only saw the screenshots. Sorry about that.
It does look much better in motion. I'm torn now between them. I've never really been bothered by grain in films, but its impossible to ignore the huge increase in picture clarity with it de-grained.
I'm sorry I cant give a definitive answer as to which one I prefer now, they both look so good.
DrDre said:
It would be interesting to compare both methods to Team Blu's Star Wars upscale. Since I don't have that one, I wonder if someone could provide some screenshots for comparison?
I think their YouTube video "trailer" has some quick scenes of just the GOUT upscale, not entirely sure.
I would not even know where to get a copy, torrents and all that stuff is completely foreign to me.
Zyrother said:
It does look much better in motion. I'm torn now between them. I've never really been bothered by grain in films, but its impossible to ignore the huge increase in picture clarity with it de-grained.
I must say that, even if it seems degrained - in comparison to GOUT - it has indeed grain; smaller that GOUT - that is quite big when upscaled - taken from 35mm film; that helps to improve the perception of fine details, even if I must admit it's far from DrDre, but much better than plain classic upscale... IMHO! (^^,)
Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com
I did not mean it was totally de-grained. Just that your upscale removed much of the noise/grain that the LaserDisc transfer created. The upscale seems to allow the natural grain structure to flourish. Although the resolution of DVD makes it very difficult.
We just want to avoid totally wiping away the grain. But I do believe you have found the sweet spot with picture clarity and grain retention!