logo Sign In

THX 1138 "preservations" + the 'THX 1138 Italian Cut' project (Released) — Page 79

Author
Time
Post link

msycamore said:

poita said:

I was just interested, I heard an interview where George Lucas' mother pronounces the movie as THEX throughout it, so I was wondering if that was how George referred to it at 'home'.

It got me thinking about how the general public pronounced it.

I remember the Australian band INXS (In Excess) being introduced as 'inks' on stage once.

Interesting, what interview (documentary) did you see?

Btw, have you guys come to a decision yet regarding the '71 print scan? I would personally suggest Spaced Ranger if it comes to color correction of the print but he himself may not agree with me of course. I just thought it would at least reduce workload off your shoulders, Poita. What's the plan, guys? THX-Vinegar Edition.

 Proceed as you think best. You guys know what you're doing. :)

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
Post link

Always glad to help. Besides, I love these demonstrations. I really do! Like A certain Team leader once mused ... "I love it when a plan comes together." Me, too!  :D

Speaking of which, I looked back and noticed my procedure looked too much like voodoo without the actual, procedural splits and recombination. So here they are (where they should've been):

.

In a paint program ... the two now-equally-sized images were split into their Hue-Saturation-Luminance components. ..

.

.. The DVD's H-S was recombined with the 16mm's L. ..

.. After removing the mask, the resulting 16mm frame is amazing (!) considering there was no other corrective processing!

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Thanks for the detailed infographic :)

That is basically what I was suggesting, with a bit more work on the image registration side of things. It is a good technique if you have a source that has good colour, the colour resolution can be quite low and still look great overlaid onto a source with high luma resolution.

Donations welcome: paypal.me/poit
bitcoin:13QDjXjt7w7BFiQc4Q7wpRGPtYKYchnm8x
Help get The Original Trilogy preserved!

Author
Time
Post link

Yeah, I've done this kind of thing many times in despecialized. It's a good way to unify the colors when putting two or more different sources together in one frame but image registration has always been one of the biggest problems I had when doing despecialized.

Author
Time
Post link

Image registration can be done using Elastix, it gives solid results, but isn't fast.

Donations welcome: paypal.me/poit
bitcoin:13QDjXjt7w7BFiQc4Q7wpRGPtYKYchnm8x
Help get The Original Trilogy preserved!

Author
Time
Post link

Thanks, guys! This is a great technique with lots of uses. I love re-inventing the wheel -- it forces one to learn it's nuts & bolts ... so you can screw everything up in novel ways (and that's mostly a good thing)!

For example, the resulting frame of this proof-of-concept shows an "apparent" fringing of red in some areas. (I hope that was not being referenced as the "registration" problem. The film scan itself does have fringing from chromatic aberration, but that is from the scanning equipment -- see this thread's page 52). This HSL-recombination "fringing" is actually damaged coloring in the DVD, courtesy of GL and company, which used this occasion to surface (an easy fix, though).

Notice in the DVD H-S-L split that saturation "hits the roof" (white) in small, particular areas. Back to the resulting frame, those very same areas glow (red in this case). Yet the 16mm scan, even with it's film fade, does not have any corresponding spike in saturation in those (shadowed) areas.

Alas, Lucas Film is everyone's whipping boy ... but for good reason. And, thereby, we have our work cutout for us.  :)

Author
Time
Post link

Update: I re-captured all three of my THX 1138 LDs with the DPS-575 and, despite my initial praise, have some reservations about the results of the 3D CF in "normal" (of low/normal/high/extreme) mode.

The first frame of every significant shot change (e.g., dark to light; red to blue) has SeriouslyScrewedUp™ chroma; everything else looks fine otherwise.

The question at this point is: Do I accept this result and move forward or should I re-capture with the DPS-575 in 2D adaptive mode instead?

The best solution is, of course, a combination of the two. I can re-capture with the DPS-575 in 2D adaptive mode and then replace the SeriouslyScrewedUp™ frames with ones from it, but I don't really have a shot change detection algorithm I trust at the moment and I'm not willing to go through this entire thing to come up with a shot list.

Thoughts?

In better news: I have found the best denoising algorithm I've ever seen in an extremely expensive (read: thousands of dollars) program I use regularly. It uses some of the best motion estimation algorithms in the biz and I can't force this thing to smear. It's wonderful.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

Author
Time
Post link

AntcuFaalb said:

.. with the DPS-575 ... in "normal" ... every significant shot change ... has SeriouslyScrewedUp™ chroma; ..

So it seems their algorithm doesn't account for such major changes. Is that a "known problem" that requires a down-shift of it's settings -- lower than normal?

This begs the question -- does this happen all the time? That is, no accounting at all for it going out-of-bounds? Perhaps it's visually noticeable only in the worst case. Try your processed playback with saturation doubled (or even tripled) and see if SeriouslyScrewedUp™ chroma then shows on every shot change and/or every instance of fast frame/object movement.

I'd say definitely go for the fix. If settings fail, frame replacement as a corrective solution sounds good. (If time is not of the essence, I could help document frame changes and transitions. But I don't have a guaranteed 24fps source. Is a small, review file available for that application? PM me if any details.)

Author
Time
Post link

Spaced Ranger: Shoot me a PM. It might be more productive to have a realtime chat about this.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

Author
Time
Post link

I capture all LDs with a 3DCF and then again with a 2DCF and replace the scene change frames. It really does seem the only way to get the best of both worlds.

In reality though when watching a movie, no one will see it if it is a single frame duration, the scene change is enough to throw the viewer for more than a frame.

But I can't help it, knowing it is there is enough to irk me....

Donations welcome: paypal.me/poit
bitcoin:13QDjXjt7w7BFiQc4Q7wpRGPtYKYchnm8x
Help get The Original Trilogy preserved!

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

AntcuFaalb said:

Spaced Ranger: Shoot me a PM.

Alright.

         PM

.

poita said:

In reality though when watching a movie, no one will see it ... But I can't help it, knowing it is there is enough to irk me.

And it's worse if you've actually seen it once. Like first the time I watched the newly acquired 2001: A Space Odyssey in high def. The TV wasn't wasn't properly set up (I was playing with it) and I saw this ..

.. instead of this ..

What!? I had seen "behind the curtain" and saw ... the title board? From Stanley Kubrick? Genius? Perfectionist? And I just saw a sloppy overlay? Ever since, I can't watch 2001 without subconsciously scrutinizing every little corner to spot more poorly-joined seams. 

Author
Time
Post link

There are issues with the HD master of 2001. You're not supposed to be seeing the seams in the front projection screen used for The Dawn of Man sequence. They were never visible in 70mm, and they sure as heck shouldn't be now.

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Not to go too far with this here ... but, I think their monitors weren't calibrated and they pushed the film beyond reasonable limits. I just grabbed the DVD (Warner 1999) and it shows the title board more plain (just like with the above downloaded HD image, when I paint-program pushed it to duplicate my maladjusted TV) ..

I wonder if this would show on the laserdisc, too (the Kubrick approved, Criterion Collection one PDB is using at the 2001 thread)?
[I'll copy this over there to continue with it.]

Author
Time
Post link

I'm guessing that Kubrick wasn't responsible for that (hinted at in that article)? Unlike Lucas, who is responsible for messing up his films. 

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Spaced Ranger said:

But we'll never find out because, while trying a quick search for that interview (which failed)...

Well, it's not that important, I were just a bit curious. Wasn't aware that an interview with her existed. It can remain a top secret for all I care.

AntcuFaalb said:

Update: I re-captured all three of my THX 1138 LDs with the DPS-575 and, despite my initial praise, have some reservations about the results of the 3D CF in "normal" (of low/normal/high/extreme) mode.

The first frame of every significant shot change (e.g., dark to light; red to blue) has SeriouslyScrewedUp™ chroma; everything else looks fine otherwise.

The question at this point is: Do I accept this result and move forward or should I re-capture with the DPS-575 in 2D adaptive mode instead?

The best solution is, of course, a combination of the two. I can re-capture with the DPS-575 in 2D adaptive mode and then replace the SeriouslyScrewedUp™ frames with ones from it, but I don't really have a shot change detection algorithm I trust at the moment and I'm not willing to go through this entire thing to come up with a shot list.

Thoughts?

In better news: I have found the best denoising algorithm I've ever seen in an extremely expensive (read: thousands of dollars) program I use regularly. It uses some of the best motion estimation algorithms in the biz and I can't force this thing to smear. It's wonderful.

Thanks for the update. Besides being trademarked, how does the seriously screwed up chroma look like in pictures, good old fashioned smear artifacts?

The idea of a B&W encode of the Warner Cut sounds terrific as a first quick way to get it out there. Keep up the good work Poita and Antcufaalb! :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time
Post link

Spaced Ranger said:

I'm guessing that Kubrick wasn't responsible for that (hinted at in that article)? Unlike Lucas, who is responsible for messing up his films. 

 Kubrick never got around to supervising any modern transfers of his films. (AFAIK, only the Criterion LD's of 2001 and Dr. Strangelove bear his seal of approval.)  He had just finished Eyes Wide Shut when he passed away in 1999.

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Thanks for the Heads up on the HSV method to replace some shots.

(NOTE TO MODS: These should probably moved to the Technical forum, but we wanted to point out some early tests.)

The results look good, but there are artifacts introduced when you convert them to video, so there are still issues.

We have been experimenting with them.

We used Raw Red Eastman frames, with the LPP

for the Hue/Saturation levels:

Pictures were created in ImageJ, registered with TurboReg, and then using the native HSB (which is the same as HSV) to copy and replace channels.

==============================

And now, back to THX 1138, (Which was the Cell number that Leia was in).

Team Negative1

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

A few more test shots:

====================

Note the increased pixelation on the right hand wall that was not evident before.

There could be other post processing steps done afterwards.

For Reference, here are the LPP frames:

=========================

Team Negative1

Author
Time
Post link

Well, this is probably the wrong place for Star Wars  ;)  but the HSL recombination can be useful in assorted instances. I found out in PDB's Blade Runner Color Regrade that anomalies become magnified, as you've discovered. My last conclusion there (without having best sources for further HSL recombination tests) was in favor of a RGB color correction (Page 3 that thread).

I had better success in first equalizing the Luminance of the separations before recombination in muddyknees2000's The Hobbit Rankin/Bass Animated Film (see Page 4 that thread). In that case, the VHS look (at better resolution) was the target. The DVD was too dark to accurately carry the VHS Hue & Saturation. A "color correction" of the B&W DVD Luminance was first made to match the VHS Luminance (very easy with B&W only) before recombination.

Author
Time
Post link

SilverWook said:

If you think that's bad, check out the pink tennis ball in The Shining.

http://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-tennis-ball-in-The-Shining-change-to-pink

I groan every time I see this shot. The theatrical DCP has it too. :/

Yeah, I hate that color screw up, makes you wonder what else they fucked around with. It also seems like Warner have decided to permanently replace the original mono mix with the 2001 5.1 remix. Oh well, at least they finally released a properly matted video transfer.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time
Post link

I think the remix was done tastefully. It's not gimmicky at all, nor does it add anything that wasn't there before. And I think someone has captured the Laserdisc PCM mono?

I like the open matte version once in a while, just for the infamous helicopter shadow. I wonder if an HD version is out there in the wild?

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
Post link

SilverWook said:

I think the remix was done tastefully. It's not gimmicky at all, nor does it add anything that wasn't there before. And I think someone has captured the Laserdisc PCM mono?

It might be tastefully done but I don't think it's too much to ask that Warner provides the option. It's not how the film was presented originally. The fidelity is great but in my opinion the remix is inferior in other subtle ways, in terms of music editing the remix is slightly different. If I recall correctly, Gordon Stainforth wasn't even consulted for the remix. If someone has captured the LD PCM, please let me know.

SilverWook said:

I like the open matte version once in a while, just for the infamous helicopter shadow. I wonder if an HD version is out there in the wild?

I think there is, just be aware that the open matte versions are cropped in their own ways, (mostly on the sides and at the top of the frame) you don't get to see the full 1.37:1 (1.33:1) negative ratio on them.

2001 4:3 transfer vs. 2007 16:9 transfer

A bit of the infamous shadow is actually still visible for a few frames in the 2007 transfer. It's of course presented in 1.78:1 instead of 1.85:1, but who knows how they cropped the 2007 transfer. Would be interesting to see an actual 35mm film cell from the film in order to see where the actual masking in 1.85:1 and 1.66:1 would land in frame.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time
Post link

I know. Even the elderly transfer used for the first DVD in 1999 is different in it's framing.

Can't recall who said they were going to capture the LD audio at the moment.

I would be sorely tempted if a 35mm print turned up. The one I saw in 2006 was scratchy, but the color was fine. We'd have to restore the correct Warners logo at the beginning of course. ;)

BTW, there's a new book on The Shining coming out next month I'm really looking forward to.

http://www.theoverlookhotel.com/post/114983735961/coming-in-may-2015-from-centipede-press-is-a

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
Post link

SilverWook said:

I know. Even the elderly transfer used for the first DVD in 1999 is different in it's framing.

Can't recall who said they were going to capture the LD audio at the moment.

I would be sorely tempted if a 35mm print turned up. The one I saw in 2006 was scratchy, but the color was fine. We'd have to restore the correct Warners logo at the beginning of course. ;)

Oh man, the '99 DVD was one ugly release. One of the first DVD's I ever bought. It did provide the mono mix but I recall the track was very weak. Suddenly got the urge to check it out to see if it was as poor as I remember but it appears I no longer own it. I believe one of the old PAL DVD's have the original mix for the International Cut. The audio was slightly reworked between cuts I think.

Yes, I miss the old red Warner Communications logo at the start. Nice to hear there's old prints out there with the colors still intact. The print I saw a few years ago (International Cut) was severely faded and rough. Still a great experience.

SilverWook said:

BTW, there's a new book on The Shining coming out next month I'm really looking forward to.

http://www.theoverlookhotel.com/post/114983735961/coming-in-may-2015-from-centipede-press-is-a

Yeah, looking forward to it! :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com