Idea & Info: Cinerama 70mm '2001' preservation. Is it possible? — Page 5

Hi fellow 2001 ASO fans!

I've seen this movie countless times (via SD TV, DVD, & BR).

 Does anyone know if any HDTV 2001 ASO broadcasts have the audio panning in-tact? 

For the 2001 ASO BR video, what are some major differences (if any) that can easily be spotted? I've read that the space suits are a different shade in the BR, however the DVD Beaver screen-shots look fine.

Regarding the audio, there is a Disclord post on QQ that confirms the panning on the original DVD and the remix for the BR. http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?15100-quot-2001-a-Space-Odyssey-quot-Laserdisc-Criterion-Box-set-GREAT-SURROUND

The pink is built into the master for the LD. In fact its not uncommon to see a pink tint on older telecine masters from the late 80s and into the 90s. Much like its not uncommon to see green in HD masters today.

I definitely see green in the BD master. Anytime there is white it tends to be green, subtract enough on that green and you get close to the same level of pink of the LD master.

Is there a consensus that there is "green" in the BR?

Also, can 2001 ASO be color-corrected with simple changes or is a correct print in digital form needed.

PDB said:

The pink is built into the master for the LD. In fact its not uncommon to see a pink tint on older telecine masters from the late 80s and into the 90s. Much like its not uncommon to see green in HD masters today.

I definitely see green in the BD master. Anytime there is white it tends to be green, subtract enough on that green and you get close to the same level of pink of the LD master.

skoal said:

Is there a consensus that there is "green" in the BR?

It's not so much needing a consensus as it is using Kubrick's own participation in the remastering process for this Criterion Collection laserdisc (see the OP). DVDBeaver's comparative look demonstrates that the color of the various releases are all over the map and something like a Kubrick-approved remaster is what's needed -- also reflected in PDB's comparative screenshots on page 4.

BTW, that was a good link but captainsolo beat you to it (also page 4).

.

I move that we require 2001: A Space Odyssey to be viewed by sitting in chair from Stanley Kubrick's 1960's futuristic film of the past (2001). So better start saving up (only £750.00) ..

"Authentic Oliver Mourgue Djinn Sofa Airborne International 2001 space odyssey"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Authentic-Oliver-Mourgue-Djinn-Sofa-Airborne-International-2001-space-odyssey-/301467811337

The funny thing is ... this was contemporary furniture available at the time the movie was made and actually purchased for use in same. I hope that doesn't blow anyone's mind ...  :)

Spaced Ranger said:

skoal said:

Is there a consensus that there is "green" in the BR?

It's not so much needing a consensus as it is using Kubrick's own participation in the remastering process for this Criterion Collection laserdisc (see the OP). DVDBeaver's comparative look demonstrates that the color of the various releases are all over the map and something like a Kubrick-approved remaster is what's needed -- also reflected in PDB's comparative screenshots on page 4.

BTW, that was a good link but captainsolo beat you to it (also page 4).

.

I move that we require 2001: A Space Odyssey to be viewed by sitting in chair from Stanley Kubrick's 1960's futuristic film of the past (2001). So better start saving up (only £750.00) ..

"Authentic Oliver Mourgue Djinn Sofa Airborne International 2001 space odyssey"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Authentic-Oliver-Mourgue-Djinn-Sofa-Airborne-International-2001-space-odyssey-/301467811337

The funny thing is ... this was contemporary furniture available at the time the movie was made and actually purchased for use in same. I hope that doesn't blow anyone's mind ...  :)

 Better that chair then the way Malcolm MacDowell's Alex's aversion therapy chair in "A Clockwork Orange"

PDB, thank you for the post. I see the green in the BR, pink in the LD, and both seem off.

Spaced Ranger, thank you for replying. What do you think about the green and pink? Nice chair too. ;-)

@ skoal

Well, the whole "green" thing is just today's trend of children scribbling with the crayons upon our movies. They do it because the box of crayons (digital processing) has been put in front of them. To get up to speed with that, check out ..

Orange and Teal, or How “Re-Mastering” is Distorting Our View of Classic Films
http://notonbluray.com/blog/orange-and-teal/

Teal and Orange - Hollywood, Please Stop the Madness
http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-stop.html

The "pink", on the other hand, looks to be something endemic to film (as per PDB). In this particular case (2001:ASO), I believe it is something that shows when proper brightness is lost in the process, whereby underlying variations become more prominent (see my comment & demonstration -- end of page 3). This may be apart from the Criterion LD presentation. The color bars, if we can get them, may tell.

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@ PDB

Do your sample strips show the full picture area of your captures? If so, there's another curve-ball that's been pitched at us ... aspect ratio! Here is the result of overlapping the 2 captures (from CAV and CLV) of this same shot ..

That would make LDDb wrong in their description of both Criterion LDs having the same 2.20:1 aspect ratio.

CAV:
2001: A Space Odyssey: Special Edition #60 (1968) (Uncut) [CC1160L]
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00997/CC1160L/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey:-Special-Edition-%281968%29

CLV:
2001: A Space Odyssey #60A (1968) [CC1235L]
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/03062/CC1235L/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey-%281968%29

Yes sir that's is the full picture frame, Spaced Ranger. Perhaps the differences arrive from CAV misframing the captainsolo pointed out.

 I assume for calibration the color bars are only useful for the LD that they are on? Shame mine doesn't have them.

Yes ... and thanks for that reminder! I must've been so traumatized by the mention of ... * laser rot *  ... that I completely glazed-over a possible framing correction in the Pioneer re-issued CAV [any news, captainsolo?]. At least the Warner 2007 Blu-ray got that part right (the more picture area, the happier we are!) ..

:)

BTW, I think color bars are master dependent, not pressing dependent (and the 2 versions look like the same master coloring). So, if anyone does a CAV capture, you should be able to use their color bars and a colorful shot(s), matching yours, to globally re-calibrate your capture.

Spaced Ranger and All, please excuse me if what I'm relying is not cool, however if a preservation project was done, would the pink would be retained or removed? I ask because the 'pink' is in the Kubrick-approved LD, which I think some people regard as the 'right'/'correct'.

Spaced Ranger, your latest screenshot for the ARs is awesome, thank you. Also thank you for the links and I'm already familiar with both of them, they should be required reading for this forum.   ;-)

Yes, a "preservation" of the laserdisc should be as we are seeing it thus far. The proviso being an accurate capture (color bars would help there) and no evidence of a malformed production (unlikely -- with the later CLV's reframing having the same coloring).

On the other hand, a "restoration" of the movie, from the Blu-ray using the laserdisc as a color guide, allows more latitude. That is what PDB is doing.

The Criterion Collection laserdisc is head & shoulders above all the other releases in color accuracy. But I'm still holding out hope that this release comes closer still to the Taschen book's photo record (see page 3 for that sample). In fact, if I take the Taschen photo and apply the reverse of my LD-to-Taschen brightness (& contrast & saturation) increases (end of page 3), I get the LD coloring ..

  Taschen photo top    brightness reduction bottom

So, the Taschen representation seems to me to be perfect on-the-set accuracy (just because my eyes tell me so).

Spaced Ranger and PDB,

Can you post BR-screenshots of the "chair" and "moon" that are color-corrected for both the green and pink? The shots I'm interested in were posted by PDB (however, not color corrected) in Post 92 of this thread.

I recently re-watched 2001: ASO and the chairs look pretty good in the BR and I would like to see how they would look when color-corrected. Also, the green can be distracting at times.

Thank you and cheers!

I think someone else mentioned there is directional audio @ ~25:45.

Does anyone have the DVD 5.1 ac3 to share? ;-)

captainsolo said:

...

Anyone have any suggestions for what scenes would be best, or those with directional dialogue?

@ captainsolo

Good LD info! Now I know for what to watch-out. Thanks!
Some day some one must do an exhaustive history (with comparative pictures, of course) of all the releases -- like a Star Wars website I once came across, with all it's releases list (cover pictures too), domestic and international.
Ah, some day ...  :)

.

@ PDB

I was prompted by skoal's request to back-check your quick tests. It looks like you've already tried a "chairs" adjustment there ... Post 94

But, while there, I again noticed something that previously had caught my eye. It was the type of color difference in the space stewardess zero-gravity walk shot. The laserdisc and Blu-ray comparison showed only the wall-padding differently colored. Using R-G-B adjustments (my manipulation of choice) could not fix it without altering other areas. Then I wondered if they may have used a hue shift for just that part of the color spectrum. Starting with a simplified approach, I tried shifting the entire spectrum ... and that did it! And it seems that's what you must've done for your correction back to laserdisc colors, at least for that particular shot.

Oh, the heresy of this Blu-ray! That's them just pushing the tint button on the monitor to make a mis-adjusted release, saying, "Ah, that's better."

Sorry, for the late response guys. Been out of the loop with the OT for a few days. skoal, at this point this is more research for a project. I'm not actively working on a regrade at the moment. Got too many unfinished project at the moment, so I don't want to make any promises. I will get to it but it will be awhile.

Concerning the pink in the LD. Its a debate when you regrade if you should grade perfectly to the source or what's more consistent/looks better. I'm more of the to the source fellow, otherwise I'm imposing what I like best which is how we get into the situation of needing regrades. Having said that, the pink I think is just of weakness of the transfer equipment of the time and perhaps the print. I've seen it in some transfers of the age and would probably pare down a little of it. For example of the pics I posted earlier:

CC LD/BD/BD Regrade

I removed some of the pink to return the picture more towards the blue and white in my regrade test. To be sure there is still pink/magenta there but its lessened. I didn't want to push it all out but I'd probably take some more out in the final grade to get the panels closer to white. Certainly better then the lime green of the BD at least in that scene

Your comparison of the amount of available picture is interesting Space Ranger. Since the CC is a 35mm reduction, I expected much less picture then the BD. And yes those panels in the stewardess scene are brown over the BD's yellow. Your assessment of the hue is correct. Frankly, that wasn't to hard to fix. I still can't figure how to fix the green moon surface in the shuttle scene. Get it back to the brown of the LD.

I, too, couldn't figure how to apply my R-G-B approach to the stewardess shot until I remembered the analogue-to-digital relationship of tint-to-hue when correcting LD-captured color bars. Using hue was the solution. So, too, is your problem ... only reversed. The solution is an R-G-B adjustment.

The Blu-ray shot not only looks green in the moon's surface, but also green and blue of the aqua moon bus. It could be approached as Green & Blue are too strong. Or it could be approached as Red is too weak. In such darker shots, I prefer strengthening the weaker color(s) to raise the overall luminance level ..

Viola! And, yes, this does look like the LD capture ... if that capture is slightly brightened (increased lightness & contrast) ..

That's right on the money Space Ranger, thanks for the help going to try it myself.

Double Post

While waiting for the completion of the preservation, here a quick sampling of what to expect (notice the spot-on color-correction):

"YouTube: 2001: A Space Odyssey recreated in clips from The Simpson"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KliLsBSo-J4

Doh!

Spaced, are you really preserving this? Scene by scene?

Keep us updated! Thanx.

I hope you're not referring to The Simpsons.  :)

Actually, I mis-typed. PDB may do a preservation (he hasn't mentioned it) for his LD restoration. But, after all, he must capture it to work on it.

As for me, I'd love to do a rectification if I had more time (which would automatically include preservations of no-longer-available sources). My rectification would do things like:

[CAUTION: SPOILERS ... that will ruin your movie-watching experience! Quick! Avert your eyes from the following ... oops ... too late.]
.

• using the Taschen The Stanley Kubrick Archives book for color reference where lightening our Kubrick approved laserdisc (as I've already demonstrated) would approximate the Archives's on-the-set photographs

• correcting effects shots that start early or late

• unsticking the pen in weightlessness

• fix the wrong memory-slab slide-out; align slab stop positions

• align some readout re-exposures misaligned onto main photography

• eliminate vertical vibration in camera tracking

And that's without more research on what others have spotted.  Sorry, Stanley.  :)

Not the Simpsons episode, I meant the real deal.   ;-)

Thank you for the screenshots and captions because some of the stuff was new to me and now I gotta re-watch it!

I don't mind the mis'aligned (sic) slab slot positions' and it took me a while to find it, however, in case you haven't read this webpage, it's a pretty interesting take on how that scene might have been cut up. http://ericmvan.livejournal.com/860.html

I want to see the trims (re-inserted)!

Spaced Ranger said:

I hope you're not referring to The Simpsons.  :)

...

• correcting effects shots that start early or late

...

• fix the wrong memory-slab slide-out; align slab stop positions

• align some readout re-exposures misaligned onto main photography

• eliminate vertical vibration in camera tracking

...

Nice link! I had read about that post-Premiere edit Kubrick made after his viewing the 2001:ASO Premiere with an audience. (One sees his work with fresh eyes when watching for the first time with an audience.) There has always been overviews on the cuts, but this was the first I've read to actually nail-down specifics for his original Premiere viewing.

Unfortunately, we may never see these trims or other 2001:ASO out-takes. But remember that these cuts were part of Kubrick's final edit ... as much as any other edit he made up to this point. Still, those unused takes would make great extras on the next release.

This I just found is definitely interesting along those same lines ..

A Taste Of Blue Food In Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY
http://www.underview.com/bhpalltrims.html

"Our in-depth examination of the subject, and correlation of first-hand reports of early viewings of the film with information published since 1968, resulted in the first edition of this paper: the first complete record of all known changes to the film that had ever been compiled. For this new edition, we have added even more information about scenes filmed and photographed by Kubrick and his aides, but never screened in any public cinema.
...
Almost immediately after the premiere, Kubrick retired to the basement of the MGM building in New York and trimmed the film by approximately 19 minutes. "Trimming commenced at four P.M. on April 5, 1968, and the first session did not end until seven A.M. the next day. Work continued at this pace until the trim was completed three days later." Instructions on what was to be cut were sent to the theatres then showing the film."