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Ask the godless heathen - AKA Ask An Atheist — Page 7

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That's what you get for not reading all the posts. :p

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I currently don't have a place to store my browser's bookmarks (running a Lubuntu Live CD), so I'll leave these here, as they're potentially interesting reads for someone out there.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/excommunications/2015/02/what-christians-mean-when-they-use-the-word-atheist/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/barrierbreaker/stop-saying-atheists-cant-really-love-people/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2015/03/06/ten-things-christians-accidentally-tell-me-about-themselves/

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I don't mean this to be rude, but I find it a common tenet of many atheists that their rants are more about how others, most particularly Christians (at least in Christian majority countries), are wrong.  I mean, my thread is dedicated to putting me on the defensive.  I have deliberately taken a defensive role, inviting others to critique Mormonism.  But it seems far too many atheists (and I will agree, too many religious people) feel it necessary to elevate their stance by criticizing those who disagree rather than letting their own merits speak for themselves.  All three links you provide seem to fall exactly into that category.  I can easily blame the blogger and not you.  Don't fall into that trap yourself.  Obviously you believe you are correct.  Let atheism speak for itself.

I hope this came across properly.

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If atheists didn't attack religion, they'd have nothing to talk about. ;-)

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If this forum didn't have trolls and/or noobs, Frink would have no one to ridicule. ;P

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Leonardo said:

If this forum didn't have trolls and/or noobs, Frink would have no one to ridicule. ;P

Don't forget the idiots.

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Well that's a very broad category isn't it? I fall into it, most of the time.

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darth_ender said:

I don't mean this to be rude, but I find it a common tenet of many atheists that their rants are more about how others, most particularly Christians (at least in Christian majority countries), are wrong.  I mean, my thread is dedicated to putting me on the defensive.  I have deliberately taken a defensive role, inviting others to critique Mormonism.  But it seems far too many atheists (and I will agree, too many religious people) feel it necessary to elevate their stance by criticizing those who disagree rather than letting their own merits speak for themselves.  All three links you provide seem to fall exactly into that category.  I can easily blame the blogger and not you.  Don't fall into that trap yourself.  Obviously you believe you are correct.  Let atheism speak for itself.

I hope this came across properly.

This might be best understood within the context that the majority of current atheists likely either have religious relatives (who may possibly believe the atheist to be destined for damnation) or were once themselves religious. From such a perspective might it not make marked sense that the typical atheist apologetic should be less about a stand on atheism's merits (which may not actually exist in any great measure) as opposed to a seeming rant against the majority of 'mislead' believers?

For if one were to ascend the mount of atheism so as to look down upon all of the 'foolish' toiling believers who yet strive towards the impossible and improbable whilst denying themselves of the certain, is it truly a wonder that the logical assumption of the atheist might be, upon reaching such an apex, that such an arrival is a demonstration of mental prowess?

Yet should the atheist merely sit atop his mountain and make claim that his position is far superior (rather than stressing the inferiority of the position of his opponents) with what might he be expected to support such an argument? In making his apogee has he not stripped himself of supposed pretense; filled his heart with pride; and abandoned many former comrades along the way? What do such accomplishments attain that one might use to support a claim of a superior position?

Does he not share a similarity to the adolescent who has sacrificed the imagination of youth in favor of more tangible reality: instead of filling his days with wonder, hope and possibility, he must now reside within a more sober state in which his limitations must be keenly felt, his accomplishments belittled, and his expectation of a happy-ever-after truncated?

For what does the atheist possess that is so worthy of defense? So worthy of self-congratulations? Is not his position a solitary one? His discoveries self-effacing? The depths of his purposes made hollow?

For in seeking to plumb the extent of his existence has he not merely discovered that he is not, in fact, digging an all-important passageway through to the center of the Earth, but is, instead, merely playing with a plastic shovel in a sandbox? With such a reality firmly realized, what might the atheist stand proudly to defend?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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 (Edited)

Leonardo said:

If this forum didn't have trolls and/or noobs, Frink would have no one to ridicule. ;P

Isn't he one of the trolls? But if I think about it, your statement is actually correct as he many times ridicule himself. :p

真実

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Post Praetorian said:

darth_ender said:

I don't mean this to be rude, but I find it a common tenet of many atheists that their rants are more about how others, most particularly Christians (at least in Christian majority countries), are wrong.  I mean, my thread is dedicated to putting me on the defensive.  I have deliberately taken a defensive role, inviting others to critique Mormonism.  But it seems far too many atheists (and I will agree, too many religious people) feel it necessary to elevate their stance by criticizing those who disagree rather than letting their own merits speak for themselves.  All three links you provide seem to fall exactly into that category.  I can easily blame the blogger and not you.  Don't fall into that trap yourself.  Obviously you believe you are correct.  Let atheism speak for itself.

I hope this came across properly.

This might be best understood within the context that the majority of current atheists likely either have religious relatives (who may possibly believe the atheist to be destined for damnation) or were once themselves religious. From such a perspective might it not make marked sense that the typical atheist apologetic should be less about a stand on atheism's merits (which may not actually exist in any great measure) as opposed to a seeming rant against the majority of 'mislead' believers?

For if one were to ascend the mount of atheism so as to look down upon all of the 'foolish' toiling believers who yet strive towards the impossible and improbable whilst denying themselves of the certain, is it truly a wonder that the logical assumption of the atheist might be, upon reaching such an apex, that such an arrival is a demonstration of mental prowess?

Yet should the atheist merely sit atop his mountain and make claim that his position is far superior (rather than stressing the inferiority of the position of his opponents) with what might he be expected to support such an argument? In making his apogee has he not stripped himself of supposed pretense; filled his heart with pride; and abandoned many former comrades along the way? What do such accomplishments attain that one might use to support a claim of a superior position?

Does he not share a similarity to the adolescent who has sacrificed the imagination of youth in favor of more tangible reality: instead of filling his days with wonder, hope and possibility, he must now reside within a more sober state in which his limitations must be keenly felt, his accomplishments belittled, and his expectation of a happy-ever-after truncated?

For what does the atheist possess that is so worthy of defense? So worthy of self-congratulations? Is not his position a solitary one? His discoveries self-effacing? The depths of his purposes made hollow?

For in seeking to plumb the extent of his existence has he not merely discovered that he is not, in fact, digging an all-important passageway through to the center of the Earth, but is, instead, merely playing with a plastic shovel in a sandbox? With such a reality firmly realized, what might the atheist stand proudly to defend?

 It does often seem this is the only cause worth fighting for.  I see it at almost every turn.  Nearly every atheist with whom I get into a conversation of any depth inevitably turns to criticism of religion as his or her base, rather than other points.  I believe if I were atheist, I would simply tout why I believe what I believe, pointing out the truths of evolution, psychology, geology, astronomy, and such things that one might use to strengthen the atheist position.  Now I probably would do this because of years from the other side, seeing a unique perspective and dwelling on this topic more than most.  I actually am an author (of incomplete and unpublished works, mind you).  The topics on which I dwell nearly always gravitate towards the differences between the minds of faith and doubt, and as a result, I have internally explored these topics to great depth in recent years.  As such, I believe I have arrived at conclusions sympathetic to both sides, and a desire to seek common ground rather than animosity.  One can proclaim his or her beliefs without putting down others.  That is what I believe a good atheist should do as well.

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darth_ender said: 

It does often seem this is the only cause worth fighting for.  I see it at almost every turn.  Nearly every atheist with whom I get into a conversation of any depth inevitably turns to criticism of religion as his or her base, rather than other points.  I believe if I were atheist, I would simply tout why I believe what I believe, pointing out the truths of evolution, psychology, geology, astronomy, and such things that one might use to strengthen the atheist position.  Now I probably would do this because of years from the other side, seeing a unique perspective and dwelling on this topic more than most.  I actually am an author (of incomplete and unpublished works, mind you).  The topics on which I dwell nearly always gravitate towards the differences between the minds of faith and doubt, and as a result, I have internally explored these topics to great depth in recent years.  As such, I believe I have arrived at conclusions sympathetic to both sides, and a desire to seek common ground rather than animosity.  One can proclaim his or her beliefs without putting down others.  That is what I believe a good atheist should do as well.

 Certainly these may be fair points...but consider that seemingly nothing in science, humanities, reason, or emotion may support a proof of atheism. Rather, such may merely be used to illuminate flaws in religion (as well as in atheism, some might fairly state).

For while the discovery of a geological record might assist in the disproving of a 6000 year-old young-earth theology, how might same support a direct claim to a world without a creator? 

Further, even given that atheism might be properly considered to be a potential default position of having no belief, how might holding such a title be particularly noteworthy in and of itself? For if none might believe in the reality of Middle Earth would any likely make such a boast with pride?

Finally, is it not debatable that the spread of atheism, even were it truly to describe the only accurate position possible, could be supported by simply referring to its track record? For might not each purported atheistic boon be met with an equal (or superior) point in favor of religion (as well as a counterclaim against)? 

It might, therefor, be more appropriate to consider atheistic rantings more to serve as a means of questioning belief-without-reason rather than a reason to hold no belief. For atheism, in its proper sense, is merely what one achieves after dismissing all religions (hopefully after fair scrutiny)...much as one might achieve starvation after rejecting all foods... 

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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imperialscum said:

Leonardo said:

If this forum didn't have trolls and/or noobs, Frink would have no one to ridicule. ;P

Isn't he one of the trolls? But if I think about it, your statement is actually correct as he many times ridicule himself. :p

 It would be nice if you could post something that made sense for a change.

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^Must be the British way of conjugating verbs. ;)

^^Fair points, though unfortunate in that it will usually lead to insulting conversation if not handled well.  Still, I believe such conversation can be had without belittling believers.

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 (Edited)

     As with all controversial opinions and viewpoints, the holders thereof can be divided into 'Generally Passive' and 'Generally Militant'.

     A passive sort doesn't especially care and takes no great pains to diminish those who hold a contrary view.

     Someone who is militant in their beliefs will be inclined to belittle, in thought and/or deed, those with opposing positions.

     Personally, I only fault passive atheists for their lack of curiosity towards the information that challenges their position.

     I am profoundly distrustful of the militant variety. FAR too often there is more to their militancy than simple disagreement over the available facts. TOO often it involves the perpetuation and propogation of CRUEL depravities in personal conduct and socio-political constructs.

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thejediknighthusezni said:

     As with all controversial opinions and viewpoints, the holders thereof can be divided into 'Generally Passive' and 'Generally Militant'.

     A passive sort doesn't especially care and takes no great pains to diminish those who hold a contrary view.

     Someone who is militant in their beliefs will be inclined to belittle, in thought and/or deed, those with opposing positions.

     Personally, I only fault passive atheists for their lack of curiosity towards the information that challenges their position.

     I am profoundly distrustful of the militant variety. FAR too often there is more to their militancy than simple disagreement over the available facts. TOO often it involves the perpetuation and propogation of CRUEL depravities in personal conduct and socio-political constructs.

Might you consider yourself to be more of a Generally Passive Theist or a Generally Militant Theist?

Further, is it not somewhat presumptuous to assume that a Passive Atheist is lacking in curiosity? Is it not equally plausible that such a one might simply understand the limitations of both positions and merely wish to refrain from unnecessary conflict? 

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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darth_ender said:

^^Fair points, though unfortunate in that it will usually lead to insulting conversation if not handled well. Still, I believe such conversation can be had without belittling believers.

 Agreed

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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 (Edited)

Post Praetorian said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

     As with all controversial opinions and viewpoints, the holders thereof can be divided into 'Generally Passive' and 'Generally Militant'.

     A passive sort doesn't especially care and takes no great pains to diminish those who hold a contrary view.

     Someone who is militant in their beliefs will be inclined to belittle, in thought and/or deed, those with opposing positions.

     Personally, I only fault passive atheists for their lack of curiosity towards the information that challenges their position.

     I am profoundly distrustful of the militant variety. FAR too often there is more to their militancy than simple disagreement over the available facts. TOO often it involves the perpetuation and propogation of CRUEL depravities in personal conduct and socio-political constructs.

Might you consider yourself to be more of a Generally Passive Theist or a Generally Militant Theist?

Further, is it not somewhat presumptuous to assume that a Passive Atheist is lacking in curiosity? Is it not equally plausible that such a one might simply understand the limitations of both positions and merely wish to refrain from unnecessary conflict? 

       Whether I am a theist at all would depend upon how broadly one wishes to define "Theism".

       In my broad consideration, Anyone with the power to generate, sustain, and effect great changes in an entire universe qualifies as "God" over that creation. For this reason, I am not uncomfortable with being called a "Theist".

       I would consider myself a "Passive Theist" in the sense that I feel no special calling to "Win people for Jesus".

      I do tend to become militant towards the militancy of others.

      As for Passive Atheists, I am confident that any genuine atheist who would take a little time to HONESTLY examine the evidence and Logic would soon move to a position of tentative agnosticism, at the least.

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thejediknighthusezni said:

       Whether I am a theist at all would depend upon how broadly one wishes to define "Theism".

       In my broad consideration, Anyone with the power to generate, sustain, and effect great changes in an entire universe qualifies as "God" over that creation. For this reason, I am not uncomfortable with being called a "Theist".

       I would consider myself a "Passive Theist" in the sense that I feel no special calling to "Win people for Jesus".

      I do tend to become militant towards the militancy of others.

      As for Passive Atheists, I am confident that any genuine atheist who would take a little time to HONESTLY examine the evidence and Logic would soon move to a position of tentative agnosticism, at the least.

This seems reasonable...though perhaps an equally fair outlining of the problem might be made as follows:

Given that the un-knowability of gods must needs be certain, is there not a strong and reasonable expectation that all should be agnostic?

However, given the propensity of hope (and its absence) to functionally focus one's outlook, is it not equally be reasonable to expect that those who might see positive reason for believing in a deity might be considered theists whilst those who might be cynical towards the very idea must become the atheists?

If so, is it not fair to consider the atheist to be little more than a cynical agnostic?

For, given agnosticism may describe knowledge, atheism must describe a lack of belief. Therefor an individual confronted with a lack of knowledge must decide for him or herself how to analyse same. Is it not likely that most might choose such a thing to magnify a personal suspicion merely human nature?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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TV's Frink said:

imperialscum said:

Leonardo said:

If this forum didn't have trolls and/or noobs, Frink would have no one to ridicule. ;P

Isn't he one of the trolls? But if I think about it, your statement is actually correct as he many times ridicule himself. :p

 It would be nice if you could post something that made sense for a change.

I apologise. I will consider your special needs in my future posts.

真実

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imperialscum said:

TV's Frink said:

imperialscum said:

Leonardo said:

If this forum didn't have trolls and/or noobs, Frink would have no one to ridicule. ;P

Isn't he one of the trolls? But if I think about it, your statement is actually correct as he many times ridicule himself. :p

 It would be nice if you could post something that made sense for a change.

I apologise. I will consider your special needs in my future posts.

First of all, I've been waiting for you to say something along these lines since I last posted.  And secondly, I have a daughter with special needs.  Fuck off, asshole.

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TV's Frink said:

imperialscum said:

TV's Frink said:

imperialscum said:

Leonardo said:

If this forum didn't have trolls and/or noobs, Frink would have no one to ridicule. ;P

Isn't he one of the trolls? But if I think about it, your statement is actually correct as he many times ridicule himself. :p

 It would be nice if you could post something that made sense for a change.

I apologise. I will consider your special needs in my future posts.

First of all, I've been waiting for you to say something along these lines since I last posted.  And secondly, I have a daughter with special needs.  Fuck off, asshole.

It is out of scope of this debate but now that you mention it, I am sorry to hear about your daughter.

真実