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All Things Star Trek — Page 71

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Well, they could have set it during the events of the series. It didn't have to be a direct sequel.

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Or just do what they did in the first Star Trek movie, have some huge threat show up from somewhere, Sisko comes back and gathers his old team back together and then he kicks the things ass with his fists.

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I suppose, but DS9 had a more complex storyline than TNG or Voyager, and that's a harder sell to fickle studio executives who want a blockbuster movie they can easily promote to non fans.

A Voyager movie could be summed up as "We're lost! In Space! And there's Borg!" ;)

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Where were you in '77?

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As much as I love the first trek movie, it should have only been done once.

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SilverWook said:

...DS9 had a more complex storyline than TNG or Voyager, and that's a harder sell to fickle studio executives who want a blockbuster movie they can easily promote to non fans.

 Agreed. The movie would have to start with a lot of exposition that would, by necessity, spoil much of the series. A Voyager movie can only go four ways.

1. The status quo doesn't change.

2. Something like "The Caretaker" but with the array used to take the cast home. See 3

3. Alternate Universe that may or may not be canon.

4. Post-"Endgame" reunion.

I can see why the TNG cast was used for the movies. TNG doesn't have complex story arcs like DS9, nor does it have an overall goal that would interfere with movie making like Voyager. Using the TNG cast would have been the safest option at the time.

Nobody sang The Bunny Song in years…

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Is it wrong to state the TNG movies are not as interesting or good as the old crew movies, or that they barely resemble the tv series they are based on?

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Not really.  Everyone's out of character, even in the one I enjoy.  I like First Contact fine as a movie, but the rest aren't that good.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Yeah since when did Picard shoot first and ask questions latter.  The situation in Insurrection is exactly the type of thing he would have talked his way out of on the show, why did it need to turn into a blood bath again.  Also once we get the plot twist that the Baku kicked the Sona off of the planet and now they are dying slowly and painfully there are no straight up good guys.  Now on the show Picard would have refused to take sides once he learned this and used it to force some sort of truce but in the movie he just uses it as another excuse to kill Sona.  The twist didn't change anything so what was the point and Picard is so out of character I don't even think of him as Picard.

I grew up with TNG and I hate the movies because of this, it's painful to admit but it is true. I can't stand the TNG movies.

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DrCrowTStarwars said:

SilverWook said:

Stumbled across these, and they are too hilarious not to share.

 Yep, Sisko is awesome. 

Oh and don't forget he designed a ship that Starfleet ended up not wanting because it had too many guns on it and he then flew that ship to single handedly take on an inter fleet.

There is a reason SF Debris calls that ship the USS Ben Sisko's mother fucking pimp hand.

 DrCrow, do you mind not doing what I just did. Especially when the images are in the post just before yours.

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RicOlie_2 said:

DrCrow, do you mind not doing what I just did. Especially when the images are in the post just before yours.

 This was the exact post that made me add a recent bannable offense.

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Possessed said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

still I think the big part of the problem is that Star Trek is competing with it's self so i think if they removed old Trek from home video and TV that would help a lot and make anew Trek film coming out more of an event that everyone would have to be there for.

 You say some really absurd things sometimes, but I guess we all do.  

 I totally agree. Look how Avengers flopped competing with itself and years worth of comics and cartoons. Lord of the Rings failed because they left the Bakshi film available. Luckily you can't get the original movie serial on BluRay or else both Captain America movies would have tanked.

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DrCrowTStarwars said:

Yeah since when did Picard shoot first and ask questions latter.  The situation in Insurrection is exactly the type of thing he would have talked his way out of on the show, why did it need to turn into a blood bath again.  Also once we get the plot twist that the Baku kicked the Sona off of the planet and now they are dying slowly and painfully there are no straight up good guys.  Now on the show Picard would have refused to take sides once he learned this and used it to force some sort of truce but in the movie he just uses it as another excuse to kill Sona.  The twist didn't change anything so what was the point and Picard is so out of character I don't even think of him as Picard.

I grew up with TNG and I hate the movies because of this, it's painful to admit but it is true. I can't stand the TNG movies.

 What stuck out for me in FC, was his almost casual writing off any crew member who had been assimilated. Never mind he's living proof you can be de-borgified, shoot to kill!

If he had ever met Seven of Nine, that would have been a really awkward conversation. ;)

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TheBoost said:

Possessed said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

still I think the big part of the problem is that Star Trek is competing with it's self so i think if they removed old Trek from home video and TV that would help a lot and make anew Trek film coming out more of an event that everyone would have to be there for.

 You say some really absurd things sometimes, but I guess we all do.  

 I totally agree. Look how Avengers flopped competing with itself and years worth of comics and cartoons. Lord of the Rings failed because they left the Bakshi film available. Luckily you can't get the original movie serial on BluRay or else both Captain America movies would have tanked.

 Let's not stir that back up already. Ten year old threads are bad enough.

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skyjedi2005 said:

Is it wrong to state the TNG movies are not as interesting or good as the old crew movies, or that they barely resemble the tv series they are based on?

 Generations - I think it's "visually pleasing" or "pretty to look at" but the story is a horrible piece of shit which makes no sense at all and the reused visual effects are an insult to the audience. But I do like the Enterprise crash sequence. Actually that's the only thing I like.

First Contact - a fantastic action sci-fi movie, but not REALLY a good Star Trek movie. I love it but I must admit it has way too many plot holes and this Picard is a completely different person than the TV show Picard.

Insurrection - the premise is directly contradicting previous TNG episodes. The movie also isn't very interesting, it's just OK. It would work much better as an 45 minutes long episode but they would have to swap Picard and Riker - it should be Riker who would want to make his insurrection, PIcard should be the orders obeying officer.

Nemesis - horrible piece of shit which makes absolutely no sense at all. The story is contradicting previous TNG & DS9 episodes, story is nonsensical, the action scenes are boring, Picard's clone doesn't look like Picard, the actors forgot how to act their roles .... Just crap.

So yeah, I agree with you

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 (Edited)

Yeah, the saucer crash was spectacular on the big screen. Possibly ILM's finest non CGI sequence of the 1990's.

It really underscores the lack of emergency restraints on a starship though. And that broken window bubble over the bridge, what the heck? Did Sisko's baseball have a cameo that was cut?

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SilverWook said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Yeah since when did Picard shoot first and ask questions latter.  The situation in Insurrection is exactly the type of thing he would have talked his way out of on the show, why did it need to turn into a blood bath again.  Also once we get the plot twist that the Baku kicked the Sona off of the planet and now they are dying slowly and painfully there are no straight up good guys.  Now on the show Picard would have refused to take sides once he learned this and used it to force some sort of truce but in the movie he just uses it as another excuse to kill Sona.  The twist didn't change anything so what was the point and Picard is so out of character I don't even think of him as Picard.

I grew up with TNG and I hate the movies because of this, it's painful to admit but it is true. I can't stand the TNG movies.

 What stuck out for me in FC, was his almost casual writing off any crew member who had been assimilated. Never mind he's living proof you can be de-borgified, shoot to kill!

If he had ever met Seven of Nine, that would have been a really awkward conversation. ;)

 I have thought this many times myself.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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SilverWook said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Yeah since when did Picard shoot first and ask questions latter.  The situation in Insurrection is exactly the type of thing he would have talked his way out of on the show, why did it need to turn into a blood bath again.  Also once we get the plot twist that the Baku kicked the Sona off of the planet and now they are dying slowly and painfully there are no straight up good guys.  Now on the show Picard would have refused to take sides once he learned this and used it to force some sort of truce but in the movie he just uses it as another excuse to kill Sona.  The twist didn't change anything so what was the point and Picard is so out of character I don't even think of him as Picard.

I grew up with TNG and I hate the movies because of this, it's painful to admit but it is true. I can't stand the TNG movies.

 What stuck out for me in FC, was his almost casual writing off any crew member who had been assimilated. Never mind he's living proof you can be de-borgified, shoot to kill!

If he had ever met Seven of Nine, that would have been a really awkward conversation. ;)

 Yeah, not to mention we already had Picard go through this character arc twice on the series and it was handled much better.

Also why was it just some random person from the past who he is never going to see again who called him out on it? Why did that work?  The scene would have worked a little better if it had been Crusher I think.  I mean he already has a relationship with her and we know from the series that he still kind of feels guilty about having to give the order that resulted in her husband's death so I think it would have worked a little better if she were in the scene, plus it would have given her something to do in one of the movies.

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If Guinan had been in the movie, her personal history with the Borg could have lent those scenes more weight. It's a lot tougher for someone in a starfleet uniform to challenge Picard on his course of action no matter their personal history, as the scene with Worf shows.

As it is, Lily serves as the plot exposition character for the benefit of the general audience, who need the Borg explained to them.

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As for Guinan or Crusher taking over Lily's role in the movie, I don't know....

I really like the idea that it's somebody who has never seen the Borg before at all--who is still utterly terrified by them--who sets Picard to rights.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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Okay I just finished watching the Voyager episode Flesh and Blood and I have not watched this episode since it's broadcast and when you think about the full implications of the message of this episode am I the only one who thinks it is the single most stupid and racist episode of Star Trek ever made.

That may seem harsh and like an over reaction but really think about what this episode is saying by making Janeway right when she hunts down the holograms and talks about them as "those people" and how it applies to the real world.

It is in effect saying that no enslaved people no matter how abused have a right to fight for their freedom and if their fight results in even one death of the people oppressing them then it is okay to genocide them out of existence.  So it if the south had won the civil war it would have been okay if they had committed genocide against all Africans since some of them took up arms against the slave holding states and killed people in it.  So the only way to end the killing and be sure it was done would be to kill them all or put them back into slavery.  Remember the one Hologram who we see alive in the end only redeems herself by turning against her fellow holograms and then she is placed on a ship with one of her former masters being given control over her.  In other words this episode is saying that the civil war should have ended with the slaves either killed or returned to slavery.

Then there is the idea that Janeway has every right to kill all of the holograms because some of them did kill Herogan.  Now again some people may see me as reading too much into this but let's apply Janeway's and since the episode showed her to be in the right by extension the show's logic to a real world situation.  I know this will rub some people the wrong way and this is something we are not supposed to bring up when talking about fiction but I find it impossible to explain why this disturbs me so much with about talking about this real world event because it is the most extreme and best understood example of a certain world view in action.  If talking about this subject offends you or has you rolling your eyes at me please stop reading now.  I am sorry but I find no other way to explain this point, if you think I am wrong that is fine and I am sorry I am too stupid to explain this without broaching this topic.  Also to be clear I am not accusing the writers and producers of Star Trek Voyager of being in favor of this, I am only saying they are guilty of not thinking through the message their show was sending because they were too focused on making big action scenes.  Given that Star Trek has always prided it's self on being a message show, I don't think the message should be over looked or that viewers like me are at thought for "thinking too hard about it".

I know this will offend a lot of people so I am giving you one last chance to turn away.

Okay the example I am citing is the nazis and the final solution.  This episode says that Janeway was right to wipe out the holograms because some of them were guilty of killing people, so the only way to be sure they would never hurt anyone again was to kill them all.  This story frames it's self as being about race relations and it argues that when it comes to race wars you should always fight for your own people and only your own people no lengths are too extreme to ensure victory.  How does this apply to the final solution you may ask and aren't I taking this a bit too far? I don't think so because remember Hitler argued that the Jews and other groups had been plotting against the German people and causing the deaths of Germans for hundreds of years so an extreme solution was needed to stop the killing of Germans.  it is in fact the same argument Janeway makes in this episode about holograms and remember the episode says she was right. Now also remember that not all holograms were murderers but Janeway still was shown to be in the right for wanting to kill them all.  If you follow this episodes logic then the only reason Hitler was wrong was not because his general mindset was wrong or his solution to the problem he saw was wrong. No, Hitler was only wrong because the jews didn't happen to be plotting against the German people, if they had this episode is saying Hitler had every right and in fact was duty bound to his race to enact the final solution.  In fact given that it doesn't matter if they were involved in the plot or not, Janeway still kills the holograms this episode is in fact saying that if Hitler could have found one small group of jews who were plotting to kill Germans he had every right to kill every member of the race.

Now let's get to the other message that Janeway is somehow at fault for the deaths of the Horgan in this episode because she gave them holodeck tech.  Let's think about it and see just how disturbing this is.  It is in fact saying that if you help about people and anyone of those people does something wrong in future you were wrong to help them, so the best solution is to not help at all.  Again let's apply this to the real world.  My family sponsors several children in Africa through a group called compassion international.  This group makes sure these children don't starve to death, gives them clean water and clothes, and sends them to school.  Under the logic of this show if any one of those children grows up to join Isis or some other radical group it is my family's fault for sponsoring them and we should have just left all African children to starve to death because that was better then getting involved and we shouldn't have taken the chance in the first place.

When you put this all together in my mind it makes this episode and not any of DS9 the one that would have Roddenberry spinning in his grave.  I mean from the start he saw Star Trek as a message show that took a stand against racism and war and this episode either wants you not to think about what it is saying or it is pro racism. I think he would have found both of those things as disturbing as I do. 

When you break this episode down to what it is saying and apply it to the real world I think it is not only the most disturbing and wrong headed episodes of Star Trek ever made but I also thing it is one of the most disturbing and wrong headed episodes of TV ever made period.

Oh as a brief side not am I the only one who laughed out lound at Janeway's excuse for not punishing Holodoc?  I mean by that logic no one can be punish for breaking the law.  I mean isn't a thief just being "who he is", so how can you punish him?  Isn't someone who speeds through a school crossing and runs over a  kid just being "who they are"? Serial killers are just being "who they are" so I guess the police can't try and stop them.  I guess this is the perfect line to end the episode on since it is just as stupid and wrong headed as the rest of the episode.

My final thoughts are that "A night in sickbay" is no longer my most hated episode of Star trek. Don't get me wrong that episode was garbage but it didn't argue in favor of the captain taking an active role in genocide.  This episode is complete garbage and has no redeeming values if you ask me.

For a show like Star trek that is the worst thing you could ever say about an episode.

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 (Edited)

Because I haven't put it in yet.  It's for you because of the added lens flares.

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Lens flare is one of the reasons I think Into Darkness is better than Star Trek 2009. That movie was horrible with lens flare.

Nobody sang The Bunny Song in years…